Think before you update - they're doing it again.

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Wheel
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2007
    • 719

    Think before you update - they're doing it again.

    Before getting your 13.4 update, those of you with IATN access might want to read these threads before you decide:

    We have a Verdict and a Solus Ultra that were just updated to 13.4. While trying to check cylinder contribution, on 2 Fords, on both units, the graphing option wasn't there for the Vedict and the Ultra doesn't show graphs, as it used to. They both show the num...


    I for one am dismayed that Snap On dropped this feature. As seen in the post below this one, others are too. If you share these sentiments, reply to this post so that Snap On will have some idea that their customers are not happy with this move. Hopefully this...


    When is the taking away of our older and still used features going to stop?
    You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel
  • Modis500
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2012
    • 358

    #2
    To anyone listening at Snap On:

    I read some of the posts by our fellow S.O. Diagnostic users on IATN, as you probably did yourself. Some very, very upset guys on there. Had the option to pick up a 13.4 Verdict last week for a very nice price, glad I didn't. (Money saved for an IDS upgrade in the very near future) Losing the graphing option on the Ford Cylinder Contribution test is a huge loss. Will have to call tech AND customer support this week and ask them some questions. I've really got to wonder though, does Snap On corporate even put any thought into our complaints on this type of problem? What the guys on IATN were saying is that customer support said the test wasn't useful above 1000 RPM, and was used inappropriately to diagnose Ford misfires. Think of the boys that pull codes, then proceed to throw parts. You're worred about liabilities on this subject? Don't think the customers will sue Snap On, just the parts-throwing mechanics.... This is by far the most useful test to myself as far as my scanner functional testing goes. In fact, that same day I had to use said test on a 2007 F-150 to find a misfire that was only showing 2 hits on Mode $06, when in fact it was quite noticeable on test drive, and the graphing function is the ONLY way I was able to find not one, but two affected cylinders. Another happy Ford customer, Snap On, thanks in part to your testing, which is now going away...Maybe listen to some of the guys on here, we are your most-dedicated source of info on your tools out in the workforce. Everyone on this forum owns, uses, and wants to get the most out of their diagnostic equipment. What other group of men and women will work 10+ hours a day, THEN proceed to get online to help others in the field? Or give or ask advice about a Snap On product or something to make us more money, and lessen the chance of comebacks. I hear many complaints on here from my fellow techs about a certain test or capability taken away from this update, or that update. I guess one way around this problem is buy OE tools (money NOT spent with S.O.) or buy used S.O. tools on eBay that have the update on the tool we want (more money NOT spent with S.O.) That's my 2 cents, which is far, far less than the $30-40K I've spent with your company.
    Thanks for listening, hope I don't have to put in an order for an IDS this month
    "If you aim for nothing, you'll hit it every time!"
    Zig Ziglar

    Comment

    • pm17340
      Junior Member
      • Jul 2008
      • 6

      #3
      uh huh....

      Preach on brother...

      Comment

      • Wheel
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2007
        • 719

        #4
        Originally posted by Modis500
        To anyone listening at Snap On:

        I read some of the posts by our fellow S.O. Diagnostic users on IATN, as you probably did yourself. Some very, very upset guys on there. Had the option to pick up a 13.4 Verdict last week for a very nice price, glad I didn't. (Money saved for an IDS upgrade in the very near future) Losing the graphing option on the Ford Cylinder Contribution test is a huge loss. Will have to call tech AND customer support this week and ask them some questions. I've really got to wonder though, does Snap On corporate even put any thought into our complaints on this type of problem? What the guys on IATN were saying is that customer support said the test wasn't useful above 1000 RPM, and was used inappropriately to diagnose Ford misfires. Think of the boys that pull codes, then proceed to throw parts. You're worred about liabilities on this subject? Don't think the customers will sue Snap On, just the parts-throwing mechanics.... This is by far the most useful test to myself as far as my scanner functional testing goes. In fact, that same day I had to use said test on a 2007 F-150 to find a misfire that was only showing 2 hits on Mode $06, when in fact it was quite noticeable on test drive, and the graphing function is the ONLY way I was able to find not one, but two affected cylinders. Another happy Ford customer, Snap On, thanks in part to your testing, which is now going away...Maybe listen to some of the guys on here, we are your most-dedicated source of info on your tools out in the workforce. Everyone on this forum owns, uses, and wants to get the most out of their diagnostic equipment. What other group of men and women will work 10+ hours a day, THEN proceed to get online to help others in the field? Or give or ask advice about a Snap On product or something to make us more money, and lessen the chance of comebacks. I hear many complaints on here from my fellow techs about a certain test or capability taken away from this update, or that update. I guess one way around this problem is buy OE tools (money NOT spent with S.O.) or buy used S.O. tools on eBay that have the update on the tool we want (more money NOT spent with S.O.) That's my 2 cents, which is far, far less than the $30-40K I've spent with your company.
        Thanks for listening, hope I don't have to put in an order for an IDS this month
        On IATN, Bob Haines dug up some information from Snap On and gave a really good explanation on the subject. He did someone at Snap on's job for them. You might want to read it as he explains a workaround for this using Shopstream to graph it in the mean time.

        Having said that, they really need to light a fire under this and get a patch ready BEFORE 14.2, at least restoring it for the benefit of those who know and can work around its limitations, accompanied by any instructions and disclaimers they deem appropriate.

        They also need to end the practice of deleting older features
        because "we don't need them."
        You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

        Comment

        • Modis500
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2012
          • 358

          #5
          A fire under the rear is exactly what's needed. What I'll do myself as a consumer for now is to forego the 13.4 update on any of my scan tools until any information states that this capability has been added back to said update. Or, like I said at the end of my previous post, is to just order an IDS...$1500 for new tool, $700 a year for updates. Not just bi-quarterly, but updates whenever FoMoCo sends them out. True, I'll need another $500 laptop, but I don't think Ford will be taking away crucial testing away from their guys...plus, $700 is much cheaper a year than $2500 after 2 S.O. updates. And yes guys, I know this will only do FoMoCo products, but I am trying to make a point with the folks on the other end of this forum
          "If you aim for nothing, you'll hit it every time!"
          Zig Ziglar

          Comment

          • Crusty
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2007
            • 2450

            #6
            SnapOn scan tools have TWO things going for them. The first is superior GRAPHING, the second is Record-Save-Playback in Shop Stream Connect.

            No aftermarket scan tool will do everything an OE scan tool will do. When an aftermarket scan tool GRAPHS better than an OE tool, it's ludicrous to remove that capability especially when that capability is one of the strengths of that scan tool.

            It is annoying, and disappointing, that the people making the decisions may be "listening" but not HEARING while they merrily go their own way IGNORING what the guys (and gals) on the bench tell them.

            Their "reason" for removing graphing in this case is B/S and a cop-out EXCUSE.

            Comment

            • Steve6911
              Moderator
              • Feb 2007
              • 2168

              #7
              Gentlemen

              For those of you on iAtn, please see Bob Haines's reply to the post on this subject. It is a good and accurate description of the problem and what is being done to correct it. The test was broken and has never been correct. Steps are being taken to correct this!
              Bob, maybe you could repost what you wrote here.

              Steve

              Comment

              • sbreland73
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 1076

                #8
                Originally posted by Crusty

                No aftermarket scan tool will do everything an OE scan tool will do. When an aftermarket scan tool GRAPHS better than an OE tool, it's ludicrous to remove that capability especially when that capability is one of the strengths of that scan tool.
                I would have to disagree here Crusty, as I feel the IDS way of graphing the cylinder contribution is great. I know S.O. can't duplicate that as it's most likely under patent, but we do need to have SOME type of measure over time, that is very helpful.
                S. Breland

                Comment

                • Crusty
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2007
                  • 2450

                  #9
                  Originally posted by sbreland73
                  I would have to disagree here Crusty, as I feel the IDS way of graphing the cylinder contribution is great. I know S.O. can't duplicate that as it's most likely under patent, but we do need to have SOME type of measure over time, that is very helpful.
                  While I havn't had to use this particular feature on a Ford, I'll stick to my original statement.

                  "SnapOn scan tools have TWO things going for them. The first is superior GRAPHING, the second is Record-Save-Playback in Shop Stream Connect."

                  Instead of just REMOVING a function, if it is really "broken", they could have inserted "Graph function is under review. Quality Control will release a repair at a later date".
                  I have seen examples of the Ford misfire graphs and I.m not really enamoured with what I've seen there.
                  Can you post a screen shot of the Ford graph and a comparison of what that function USED to look like from a previous SnapOn version??

                  Comment

                  • greasybob
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2008
                    • 1590

                    #10
                    Here is a shot of the old graphing cylinder contribution back with 12.2 I think. Also is shot of new, numbers only style from a 2012 Ford Escape I had in the shop today, that is running perfectly fine, no misfires, and maybe why you can't trust the test because it shows a problem with some single digit numbers showing. Mode 6 test 53 is still your best bet for finding a problem cylinder on a Ford, if it is supported. All this test ever did, like any other scanner information was to get you headed in the right direction.
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by greasybob; 10-22-2013, 04:56 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Modis500
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 358

                      #11
                      Bob's reply in response to this topic was helpful. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to us, which should have been done by the corporation, not one of the guys buying the software . However, I'm sure some guys are wondering= how are we supposed to use SSC on a test drive? Especially when some of us don't have the wireless tools yet. I can see where you'll do a test drive, save a movie, but are we going to have to link up to SSC to watch the graphing ability?
                      Also, why was the IDS test only designed to go to 2000RPM? I've captured misfires above this RPM point on many Ford pickups, and with great success. I have noticed "dips" occasionally while graphing, especially on deceleration, but I just discount those, and when you do get a healthy misfire, you can tell the difference.
                      "If you aim for nothing, you'll hit it every time!"
                      Zig Ziglar

                      Comment

                      • eddiesverus
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 414

                        #12
                        Well That's just not right as many of you guys have agreed, I was already planing on the update, but I guess I'll have to wait. I work with GM but do many Fords that come in, We are in small town and the Ford Dealership closed three years ago so we have picked up the slack in servicing those Ford's. I use the Cylinder contribution test all the time to find those pesky intermittent misfires. All I do is road test, duplicate the Misfire and monitor the graph to quickly spot those misfires then save and review with more detail. I would feel ripped off if the graphing ability is lost. I'll just have to wait on that? SO Please Snap-On if you really care about us Technicians and are monitoring these forums, Please give us back what you've taken.
                        Hard Work, commitment, Honesty and not giving up is what Makes us better Tech's

                        Comment

                        • Crusty
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 2450

                          #13
                          Greasybob; Thanks for the screen shots. It appears that where you have your annotation box on cyl #2 that the minimum value went down to -2402 whereas the other cylinders only go to a minimum of -20 odd or -30-odd.
                          That's a significant value difference that is NOT in the "new & improved" digital only format of display.
                          I can see where the graph display could not only show a number but also a frequency of a misfire visually. All the cylinders could be showing "some" misfires (which would be normal IF the data update rate was fast enough) but one cylinder may be consistently showing activity on the graph. A single cylinder with more activity on the graph could coincide with what is felt on a road test. Definitely a useful feature.
                          Graphing should NOT have been removed. If it was "broken", why wasn't if FIXED instead of removed??

                          Comment

                          • greasybob
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2008
                            • 1590

                            #14
                            here is an example of the cylinder contribution test working as it should on an 01 Explorer with a cylinder 5 misfire. I took a 2012 E150 4.6 for a test drive last night with my 13.4 Verus and converted the cylinder contribution test to a graph on SSC. The sample was taken with the vehicle idling. As you can see not much useful information there. The vehicle only has 200 miles on it and runs just fine
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                            • sbreland73
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 1076

                              #15
                              Here is a shot I grabbed from the net of the IDS way of showing cylinder contribution. I will also note that Autel has mimicked this feature exactly.





                              5059133550_f75451111f.jpg
                              S. Breland

                              Comment

                              Working...