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  • dodge90
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2014
    • 164

    #16
    my feeling exactualy Crusty. I was always taught and learnd to test, not replace. yea, their are some i'll toss a part at it but those are the ones I have had before and gut feeling the part is bad. I get calls all the time "whats wrong with it"? and ask did you check this and that and the answer is all most all the time, NO I FUGURED YOU SEE THIS BEFORE. UGH. I just get aggravated over their. Yea I run into brick walls sometimes and dont like to ask questions unless I'm realy stumped, rather figure it out by myself but my name wasn't changed to GOD and I dont know everything. TECK"S need to be just that, TEST, not pull codes , change parts, and then ask NOW WHAT DO I DO!!!!!
    I've tried and tried, but can't seem to fix stupid!

    Comment

    • BMW JEDI
      Senior Member
      • Feb 2012
      • 422

      #17
      Originally posted by Crusty
      OK BMW JEDI, I hear ya, BUT....

      How many times do we as professionals see and hear of literally THOUSANDS of other so called professionals doing exactly that-?? Replacing parts because of the code-!!!!!!!
      Hey, it's got an oxygen sensor code, let's throw an oxygen sensor in.
      Hey it's got a TPS code, let's throw a TPS in.

      Hey, I'm a right winger, so I believe in personal responsibility and greatly despise the big brother nanny state mentality.

      The tool is for professionals, not backyard hacks, and the software should be written accordingly.


      All over the place there are companies encouraging "dongles" (for a small nominal fee of course) to download the OBD code and shops are supposed to "bid" on the repair-!!
      IT'S HAPPENING-!! AND IT SHOULDN'T BE-!!!

      Couldn't agree with you more here

      Take a look at the Sure-Track help requests..... "I've replaced this part, I've replaced that part, I've replaced another part, and the car still isn't fixed, it still sets a code....."

      Yeah, that's why I do not use 'Sure Track'.

      The scan tools already have a whole lot of wasted button pushes, I agree, but THIS notification should be much larger, in bold type, with flashing neon lights, along with star bursts, and horns blaring-!!!

      Nope. No sir. I do not agree

      Maven started this thread on an example of W.T.F.
      Perhaps because people forget, or never learned, the proper way to check, test, diagnose, an issue that the vehicle has, or that the vehicle "thinks" it has.

      Not my responsibility.
      See responses above

      Comment

      • Witsend
        Banned
        • Nov 2012
        • 2942

        #18
        I can charge you 90 to diagnos the cause or just change the $60 part for $30

        Do you feel lucky Punk, Well do you?

        Comment

        • Crusty
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2007
          • 2450

          #19
          Originally posted by Witsend
          Do you feel lucky Punk, Well do you?
          ""I can charge you 90 to diagnos the cause or just change the $60 part for $30 ""

          And ANOTHER $60 part and ANOTHER $30 labour, and ANOTHER $60 part and ANOTHER $30 labour, and ANOTHER $60.00 part and ANOTHER $30.00 labour......ad nauseam....

          $500. at one shop, then $600 at another shop, then another $700 at a third shop........The ROOT CAUSE was A DIRTY PLUGGED UP AIR FILTER-!!!!!!!!

          ONE diagnostic charge for $75.00 and a $15.00 part

          The root cause was a LOT less costly than $1800.00-!!!!!!!!!!!!

          Don't laugh at this..... IT HAPPENED-!!!!

          Comment

          • Crusty
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2007
            • 2450

            #20
            See my comments below......

            -------------
            Originally Posted by Crusty
            OK BMW JEDI, I hear ya, BUT....

            How many times do we as professionals see and hear of literally THOUSANDS of other so called professionals doing exactly that-?? Replacing parts because of the code-!!!!!!!
            Hey, it's got an oxygen sensor code, let's throw an oxygen sensor in.
            Hey it's got a TPS code, let's throw a TPS in.

            Hey, I'm a right winger, so I believe in personal responsibility and greatly despise the big brother nanny state mentality.

            Can't get any more right winger than running my own capitalist business. It's only "big brother nanny state" if we let government handle the LACK of professionalism within our trade-!!!!!!

            The tool is for professionals, not backyard hacks, and the software should be written accordingly.

            SOME are true professionals but the bar in this industry seems to be set a little low....THAT'S WHY parts get tossed so much, even by "professionals" (and I use the term loosely)

            All over the place there are companies encouraging "dongles" (for a small nominal fee of course) to download the OBD code and shops are supposed to "bid" on the repair-!!
            IT'S HAPPENING-!! AND IT SHOULDN'T BE-!!!

            Couldn't agree with you more here

            It's happening because the bar is set too low and "professionals" TOSS PARTS based upon CODES-!!!

            Take a look at the Sure-Track help requests..... "I've replaced this part, I've replaced that part, I've replaced another part, and the car still isn't fixed, it still sets a code....."

            Yeah, that's why I do not use 'Sure Track'.

            Sure Track and IDENTAGUESS are the same thing, lots of so-called "professionals" use them both, and other forums

            The scan tools already have a whole lot of wasted button pushes, I agree, but THIS notification should be much larger, in bold type, with flashing neon lights, along with star bursts, and horns blaring-!!!

            Nope. No sir. I do not agree

            There sure ARE lots of wasted button pushes.....what's one more that may HELP encourage proper diagnosis??

            Maven started this thread on an example of W.T.F.
            Perhaps because people forget, or never learned, the proper way to check, test, diagnose, an issue that the vehicle has, or that the vehicle "thinks" it has.

            Not my responsibility.

            Not mine either except I AM passionate about MY TRADE, a SKILLED trade, a trade that deserves more respect and if WE don't discuss and encourage PROPER diagnosis and repair amongst ourselves and our peers, how do we even hope to achieve the respect that should be ours. Same as ASE certifications, or up here in the Great White North, trade licensing, qualifications EARNED and proudly displayed on our shop and office walls, just like doctors, lawyers and accountants.
            If WE don't up our own bar, who is going to do it-?? Right wingers DON'T want government to do it.
            Are we not deserving of a better level of respect than currently exists-???

            Comment

            • ericsautomotive
              Member
              • Mar 2014
              • 66

              #21
              Originally posted by Crusty
              See my comments below......
              Not my responsibility.

              Not mine either except I AM passionate about MY TRADE, a SKILLED trade, a trade that deserves more respect and if WE don't discuss and encourage PROPER diagnosis and repair amongst ourselves and our peers, how do we even hope to achieve the respect that should be ours. Same as ASE certifications, or up here in the Great White North, trade licensing, qualifications EARNED and proudly displayed on our shop and office walls, just like doctors, lawyers and accountants.
              If WE don't up our own bar, who is going to do it-?? Right wingers DON'T want government to do it.
              Are we not deserving of a better level of respect than currently exists-???
              AMEN BROTHER ! !
              Don't guess! Test !!

              Comment

              • Witsend
                Banned
                • Nov 2012
                • 2942

                #22
                ""I can charge you 90 to diagnos the cause or just change the $60 part for $30 ""

                And ANOTHER $60 part and ANOTHER $30 labour, and ANOTHER $60 part and ANOTHER $30 labour, and ANOTHER $60.00 part and ANOTHER $30.00 labour......ad nauseam....

                $500. at one shop, then $600 at another shop, then another $700 at a third shop........The ROOT CAUSE was A DIRTY PLUGGED UP AIR FILTER-!!!!!!!!

                ONE diagnostic charge for $75.00 and a $15.00 part

                The root cause was a LOT less costly than $1800.00-!!!!!!!!!!!!

                Don't laugh at this..... IT HAPPENED-!!!!

                ROFLMAO. Maybe it shouldn't be such a pain in the *** to be able to check the air filter then?
                No different then going to a regular Doctor for a checkup and watching him put a blue glove on, coughing, then getting sent to a specialist Cocktor, who gives you a 2nd opinion on the prostate with glow in the dark in lower GI. He then in turn thinks it's something that being caused from the other side and sends you to a Proctor that gives you a Colonoscopy. Says your clean and gives you a prescription for Viagra. I figure while he's in there checking ask if there's any sort of adjustment for the hose reel.
                Last edited by Witsend; 05-15-2015, 10:17 AM.

                Comment

                • BMW JEDI
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2012
                  • 422

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Crusty
                  See my comments below......

                  -------------
                  Originally Posted by Crusty
                  OK BMW JEDI, I hear ya, BUT....

                  How many times do we as professionals see and hear of literally THOUSANDS of other so called professionals doing exactly that-?? Replacing parts because of the code-!!!!!!!
                  Hey, it's got an oxygen sensor code, let's throw an oxygen sensor in.
                  Hey it's got a TPS code, let's throw a TPS in.

                  Hey, I'm a right winger, so I believe in personal responsibility and greatly despise the big brother nanny state mentality.

                  Can't get any more right winger than running my own capitalist business. It's only "big brother nanny state" if we let government handle the LACK of professionalism within our trade-!!!!!!

                  Not all Government is bad. Probably only just about 90% of what we have today is

                  The tool is for professionals, not backyard hacks, and the software should be written accordingly.

                  SOME are true professionals but the bar in this industry seems to be set a little low....THAT'S WHY parts get tossed so much, even by "professionals" (and I use the term loosely)

                  If they are only reaching for the lowest bar and tossing parts, they are not professionals, they are hacks.

                  All over the place there are companies encouraging "dongles" (for a small nominal fee of course) to download the OBD code and shops are supposed to "bid" on the repair-!!
                  IT'S HAPPENING-!! AND IT SHOULDN'T BE-!!!

                  Couldn't agree with you more here

                  It's happening because the bar is set too low and "professionals" TOSS PARTS based upon CODES-!!!

                  See my last reply.

                  Take a look at the Sure-Track help requests..... "I've replaced this part, I've replaced that part, I've replaced another part, and the car still isn't fixed, it still sets a code....."

                  Yeah, that's why I do not use 'Sure Track'.

                  Sure Track and IDENTAGUESS are the same thing, lots of so-called "professionals" use them both, and other forums

                  Freedom of choice. I like to try and diagnose each problem on my own. Many of my coworkers (and employers) like to just throw the dice and sell the part everyone else is replacing on the web....

                  The scan tools already have a whole lot of wasted button pushes, I agree, but THIS notification should be much larger, in bold type, with flashing neon lights, along with star bursts, and horns blaring-!!!

                  Nope. No sir. I do not agree

                  There sure ARE lots of wasted button pushes.....what's one more that may HELP encourage proper diagnosis??

                  Time is money. My time is my money. I resent all the extra button pressing and idiot warnings I must endure while using my 'professional grade tooling'.

                  Maven started this thread on an example of W.T.F.
                  Perhaps because people forget, or never learned, the proper way to check, test, diagnose, an issue that the vehicle has, or that the vehicle "thinks" it has.

                  Not my responsibility.

                  Not mine either except I AM passionate about MY TRADE, a SKILLED trade, a trade that deserves more respect and if WE don't discuss and encourage PROPER diagnosis and repair amongst ourselves and our peers, how do we even hope to achieve the respect that should be ours. Same as ASE certifications, or up here in the Great White North, trade licensing, qualifications EARNED and proudly displayed on our shop and office walls, just like doctors, lawyers and accountants.
                  If WE don't up our own bar, who is going to do it-?? Right wingers DON'T want government to do it.
                  Are we not deserving of a better level of respect than currently exists-???


                  I am also passionate about my trade. More passionate than probably 98% of the industry. But a man has got to know his limitations. I can only control the work I perform, and the standards to which I perform it.

                  I have seen so many business owners that want to make maximum profit for a minimum investment, and fight me every step of the way when I try to perform at a higher level. They do not see the value in it, and I am mostly unable to convince them otherwise. Besides, 'A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.'

                  They (the business owners) are writing the checks and paying the bills, and therefore they get to make the rules.

                  More to read above

                  Comment

                  • dodge90
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2014
                    • 164

                    #24
                    another example, just happend again today. Customer " I bought an egr valve, can you replace it?" Me "I realy don't think you need an egr, do you want me to check it out?" Cust. " nope stoped and had the car scaned at ------ and they said it's an egr plus I googled it and the internet said the same thing" Me, "Ok not a problem" W.O. states "relpaced egr and cleared codes as per customer, customer did not want car checked out" Next day customer comes back in ticked off at me that I didn't fix her car the right way cause the eng lite came back on. being the nice guy I am, rescanned it and explained the DPFE sensor was bad and not the egr. Also explained thats the difference between a parts guy w/a code puller and a Qualifyed Teck w/ $$$$$ scan tool with the proper knowledge on how to test the part.
                    I've tried and tried, but can't seem to fix stupid!

                    Comment

                    • Crusty
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 2450

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Witsend
                      ROFLMAO. Maybe it shouldn't be such a pain in the PITOOTEE to be able to check the air filter then? .
                      It was a Ford F150 with a 302....LMFAO

                      Comment

                      • Crusty
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 2450

                        #26
                        Originally posted by dodge90
                        another example, just happend again today. Customer " I bought an egr valve, can you replace it?" Me "I realy don't think you need an egr, do you want me to check it out?" Cust. " nope stoped and had the car scaned at ------ and they said it's an egr plus I googled it and the internet said the same thing" Me, "Ok not a problem" W.O. states "relpaced egr and cleared codes as per customer, customer did not want car checked out" Next day customer comes back in ticked off at me that I didn't fix her car the right way cause the eng lite came back on. being the nice guy I am, rescanned it and explained the DPFE sensor was bad and not the egr. Also explained thats the difference between a parts guy w/a code puller and a Qualifyed Teck w/ $$$$$ scan tool with the proper knowledge on how to test the part.
                        She did NOT have the car "scanned" at all. She had a CODE read-!!
                        You're absolutely correct about the difference.

                        With a DPFE it was ANOTHER fine FORD product-!! LMFAO AGAIN-!!

                        "" I bought an egr valve, can you replace it?""

                        ME....NOPE....have Auto-ZOO replace it, bye bye now....have a nice day. Let me know how you make out.

                        BTDT.....when they come back pissed at me because THEIR diagnosis was WRONG, and HER PART she brought didn't fix the issue I get just as PISSY back and have no problem telling those types... I TOLD YOU SO....GO GET PISSY SOMEWHERE ELSE-!!!!
                        I won't waste my time with them anymore.
                        No more patience left....too old for that cow dung-!!

                        Parts tossing.... Holy mother.................

                        Comment

                        • Witsend
                          Banned
                          • Nov 2012
                          • 2942

                          #27
                          I won't waste my time with them anymore.
                          No more patience left....too old for that cow dung-!!
                          I don't have a problem tossing a lower cost part on if a customer thinks it is going to fix something.They just know up front if it don't fix it , they'll still pay me the full diagnostic fee and for me to put the old part back on if it isn't the Part Store Code Reader Silver Bullet fix.
                          If you rub a customer that thinks they are right the wrong way, make them feel dumb, and refuse to put the part on , and someone else does it for them ,you could lose out on the other future non drive ability related repairs.
                          I have customers that even source parts from Rock Auto, and don't have a problem if they want to face Mecca and pray to Allah the part works.
                          Last edited by Witsend; 05-16-2015, 08:16 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Crusty
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2007
                            • 2450

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Witsend
                            I don't have a problem tossing a lower cost part on if a customer thinks it is going to fix something.They just know up front if it don't fix it , they'll still pay me the full diagnostic fee and for me to put the old part back on if it isn't the Part Store Code Reader Silver Bullet fix.
                            If you rub a customer that thinks they are right the wrong way, make them feel dumb, and refuse to put the part on , and someone else does it for them ,you could lose out on the other future non drive ability related repairs.
                            I have customers that even source parts from Rock Auto, and don't have a problem if they want to face Mecca and pray to Allah the part works.
                            BTDT too. These are the types that don't respect your knowledge or ability to put a part on right (but they can't do it). Then when their dime-store part doesn't work long enough to get off the hoist these people try to put you into a pissing contest with the dime-store-parts supplier-!!!
                            The "INSTALLER" put it on wrong.....
                            (the next parts rep who calls me an installer and I'm going to rip his head off and have a dump down his neck-!!!!!) (we aren't monkeys-!!!)
                            These types think you're great as long as you eat the extra time. When you have put THEIR part on THREE TIMES and you should be paid three times, they only want to pay you for one. It's their part, it's their responsibility.
                            There is no way anyone can justify you doing the job three times so they can save on the cost of a part. The sign on the building doesn't say CHARITY AUTO REPAIR-!!
                            While your hoist is tied up replacing their parts, and then you don't get paid for 66% of the work, you no longer have time for good customers who will pay you for PROPER DIAGNOSIS and quality parts.
                            No "good deed" goes unpunished-!

                            That whole scenario simply cheapens all of our trade down.

                            Comment

                            • dodge90
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2014
                              • 164

                              #29
                              I dont mind replacing parts like that cause usally I can get more work off them down the line. Yea, I've fixed cars that shouldn't have been only because if I didn't, someone else will. Mine as well get thier money instead of someone else. I would like to tell them no, good bye, but if their willing to waste their money after I give them my advice, then line my pocket instead of joe blow down the road cause thats where their going to go. And yes FORD TAURUS Mae lots of money off of those cars.
                              I thought "CHARITY AUTO REPAIR" came with the job, touch it once, and you marry it. At least that how it seems here at my shop. I bought/ or you fixed my car a few months ago and feel like I should have to pay you anymore to fix it. Now that Pis s es me off.
                              I've tried and tried, but can't seem to fix stupid!

                              Comment

                              • Scott 79
                                Member
                                • Mar 2014
                                • 41

                                #30
                                Evidently my customers trust me more than that, and if it is someone that does not know me but "heard" about me, I simply explain that 95% of the time, an egr code is not an EGR valve problem.. and we won't limit this to Ford's DPFE sensor.. allot of blocked or restricted intake passages out there. The mighty P0171.. "I put an oxygen sensor in it and the light came back on".. well you should have let me check it. I never install a customer supplied part without discussing that I have NO liability if it does not fix the vehicle. Bring me a Fram oil filter and I will throw it in the woods and install my OEM filter, they have no choice there! If it were up to me, I would never install a customer supplied part but I also want to eat next week, so if I install a set of $16 brake pads begging them not to, I do not have to worry about the noise and the need for new ones in about 15K.. I just collect my $64 labor and send them on their way!

                                Comment

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