parasitic battery draw internal or external?

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  • Witsend
    Banned
    • Nov 2012
    • 2942

    parasitic battery draw internal or external?

    2012 Honda Odyssey complaint car battery will discharges sitting overnight. The 3 1/2 yr old 75 mo battery was charged up on a battery maintainer for several hours and tested ok at 12.9V with my HF Earl Chive $39.99 battery tester. AC clutch Relay didn't test as shorted , but still removed the AC clutch relay per a TSB on the issue. Took my $4.99 HF Earl Chive test light and waited awhile after all the interior lights went off and didn't see there was enough draw when separating the cable clamp from the post to cause the testlight bulb to begin to illuminate, however in the morning the following day the battery was at 10.6 v and tested NG. Tested again with test light and again no draw enough to illuminate the d@mn test light bulb Cant seem to pry the top on this Napa Legend battery to check specific gravity of the electrolyte of each cell. Guess I'll have to just charge up battery and leave it disconnected overnight to see if the battery discharges by itself overnight internally somehow.
    Not sure if something awakens later and something funky turns on like some Chinese junk leak detection pump kicks on in the middle of the night and sticks on for a long time that I don't know about.
  • jm43130
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2008
    • 182

    #2
    We use a Vantage Pro, setup on dmm for low amp draw. We have a power supply for Vantage Pro so battery doesn't go bed overnight. You will have current battery draw, and boxes at top of screen for min-max numbers. After everything goes to sleep, we reset meter and min-max numbers match current draw. Then when we come in the morning, we can tell by max number if something came on the middle of the night.

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    • sbreland73
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 1076

      #3
      Originally posted by jm43130
      We use a Vantage Pro, setup on dmm for low amp draw. We have a power supply for Vantage Pro so battery doesn't go bed overnight. You will have current battery draw, and boxes at top of screen for min-max numbers. After everything goes to sleep, we reset meter and min-max numbers match current draw. Then when we come in the morning, we can tell by max number if something came on the middle of the night.
      Now that is a scientific, provable, painless way to test.
      S. Breland

      Comment

      • Crusty
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2007
        • 2450

        #4
        Originally posted by jm43130
        We use a Vantage Pro, setup on dmm for low amp draw. We have a power supply for Vantage Pro so battery doesn't go bed overnight. You will have current battery draw, and boxes at top of screen for min-max numbers. After everything goes to sleep, we reset meter and min-max numbers match current draw. Then when we come in the morning, we can tell by max number if something came on the middle of the night.
        That works but only for gross parasitic drains (above 50-ma)
        The low amps probe will shift 10 and 20 ma, so if a vehicle has a spec of 32ma as normal, reads 22 ma when you hook up, and it goes to 40+ ma, you still don't know if it's the vehicle or the machine.
        When individual modules have as low as 2, 3, or 5 or 7 milliamps draw normally, you won't be able to isolate it with the low amps probe.
        It should work when modules wake up and pull over a quarter of an amp (250-ma)

        Comment

        • sbreland73
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 1076

          #5
          Originally posted by Crusty
          That works but only for gross parasitic drains (above 50-ma)
          The low amps probe will shift 10 and 20 ma, so if a vehicle has a spec of 32ma as normal, reads 22 ma when you hook up, and it goes to 40+ ma, you still don't know if it's the vehicle or the machine.
          When individual modules have as low as 2, 3, or 5 or 7 milliamps draw normally, you won't be able to isolate it with the low amps probe.
          It should work when modules wake up and pull over a quarter of an amp (250-ma)
          OP didn't state using a low amp probe, but using a Vantage pro. Though I would agree about the very fine resolution lacking in the current line of Snappy amp-probes.
          S. Breland

          Comment

          • Glide
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2015
            • 303

            #6
            He said that he used Vantage DMM on low amp scale,so I would assume he uses regular leads.
            I use a Fluke 87 set on 10 amp scale in the same way.
            A fully charged automotive battery will be 13.4-13.6 volts,despite what you may read on the internet.

            Comment

            • Witsend
              Banned
              • Nov 2012
              • 2942

              #7
              Had the 90A battery maintainer attached to the battery half the day at 13.4 V while van was getting other work done and within a half hour after disconnecting battery maintainer, battery measured only slightly above 11V , but still managed to crank over the car , so I figure a cell was dying ,so changed out battery with another good used battery for the interim.
              I like the idea of the Vantage Pro being plugged into auxiliary power overnight hooked up and being able to show a min max in the morning.
              Attached Files

              Comment

              • Crusty
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2007
                • 2450

                #8
                Proper Load testing of battery

                This information is NOT "from the internet".....It is from a carbon pile tester instructions.
                The procedure is what is taught in Canadian Colleges

                ----------------------
                After charging the battery, the surface charge must be removed before testing can begin. Surface charge will cause a higher voltage reading, which is incorrect.
                To remove the surface charge, turn the load knob to apply 1/2 the cold crank rating load or 3 times the amp-hour rating to the battery for 5 seconds. Wait several minutes after removing load and check “state of charge”. If the meter reads in the charge zone, replace battery.

                --------------------
                In the first PDF there is a temperature compensation chart on page-17.
                In the second PDF thery state that the open circuit voltage is 12.65-volts.

                --------------------

                So, first we charge the battery.
                Then we check the voltage which will include the "surface charge".
                Then we remove the surface charge, and THEN we have an ACCURATE state of charge.
                It WON'T BE over 13-volts.
                It should be within 0.1 of the 1.2 volts per cell, or 12.6-V
                If it is 12.4 or 12.5 it isn't fully charged. If it is more than 12.7 it still has the "surface charge".
                ----------

                THIS IS THE PROCEDURE FOR PROPERLY LOAD TESTING A BATTERY.....

                Remove the surface charge.
                Now we can properly load test the battery.
                Write down the SOC. 12.6
                FIRST LOAD.
                1/2 the CCA rating of the battery applied using the carbon pile for 15 seconds.
                Immediately note the voltage at the end of 15 seconds before the load is removed.
                Write the voltage down.
                Use the temperature compensation chart
                WAIT TWO MINUTES.
                SECOND LOAD
                After 2 minutes record the SOC voltage.
                Apply the same load a second time for 15 seconds the second time.
                Record the voltage at the end of 15 seconds before the load is removed.
                Record this voltage.
                WAIT TWO MINUTES.
                THIRD LOAD
                Record the battery SOC.
                Apply the same load a third time for 15 seconds the third time.
                Record the voltage at the end of 15 seconds before the load is removed.
                -------------------------------------
                So first remove the surface charge.
                Load the battery THREE TIMES for FIFTEEN SECONDS, waiting TWO MINUTES between loads.
                If the voltage drops below the temperature compensated voltage on ANY of the three tests, the battery should be replaced. (see chart on page 17 of the PDF)
                The reason for loading the battery three times is to mimic repeated starting attempts if the vehicle doesn't start the first time in real world use.



                https://www.thoughtco.com › ...

                Comment

                • jm43130
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2008
                  • 182

                  #9
                  Yes, I use a Vantage Pro, on internal amp scale with regular leads. I don't think you can use a low amp probe , and leave it on all night without internal battery going dead, and then test is worthless. That's why I keep my Vantage pro. I don't think the Vantage Edge even has internal amps either.

                  Comment

                  • Witsend
                    Banned
                    • Nov 2012
                    • 2942

                    #10
                    That's Fine and Dandy, but all that time battery charging just to practically kill it all over again with 3 carbon pile load checks and then have to recharge it back all over again for another couple hours to bring it back up, I'll pass on pile testing the Turds . I would rather run it over to advance auto , Hook up the good Midtronics tester where you remove the surface charge with your headlamps on for 15 seconds , Aim the temp probe at battery, set the CCA and it analyzes batteries pretty accurately without loading them back down again. If the battery is a POS but still turns over car I don't want to have to look for a jumper box to get the turd out of my stall if the customer ain't buying or I won't have the new battery for awhile. My HF tester for the money really isn't bad , but "is a carbon pile of sh@t'" compared to good ones with the temp probe

                    Comment

                    • Crusty
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 2450

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Witsend
                      That's Fine and Dandy, but all that time battery charging just to practically kill it all over again with 3 carbon pile load checks and then have to recharge it back all over again for another couple hours to bring it back up, I'll pass on pile testing the Turds . I would rather run it over to advance auto , Hook up the good Midtronics tester where you remove the surface charge with your headlamps on for 15 seconds , Aim the temp probe at battery, set the CCA and it analyzes batteries pretty accurately without loading them back down again. If the battery is a POS but still turns over car I don't want to have to look for a jumper box to get the turd out of my stall if the customer ain't buying or I won't have the new battery for awhile. My HF tester for the money really isn't bad , but "is a carbon pile of sh@t'" compared to good ones with the temp probe
                      Manufacturers have gone to the conductive testers for warranty because so few know how to properly load test.
                      They're happy with 95% accuracy.
                      Carbon pile load testing has proven to be 100% accurate for over 40 years.

                      It hasn't passed a bad battery and hasn't condemned a good battery whereas the conductance testers have.

                      Once you KNOW the battery is good, then you don't have to wait all night to know that the drain is causing the low state of charge in the battery.
                      So you charge the battery a bit while you find the draw.
                      The load test is really no different than a few mid January cold start attempts.

                      Comment

                      • tech25
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2017
                        • 172

                        #12
                        I agree that load testing a traditional "wet" battery is the way to go. however with cars coming with AGM batteries more and more, you are not supposed to load test AGM batteries. only conductance testing is allowed.

                        And with the future looks like lead acid batteries are going bye bye and lithium batteries are the future.

                        and the only way to test them would be through the diagnostic software.

                        I normally check for draws by putting a home made kill switch on the negative end of the battery, and hook up my DVOM in parallel. that way i can open the door, turn the key on, lights, radio, work windows ect, ect. and then open the kill switch, thus putting the dvom as the sole path for current. and wait and measure. anything over .060 amps after a hour is generally a draw for me.

                        then the real fun begins..

                        Comment

                        • Crusty
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 2450

                          #13
                          Originally posted by tech25
                          I agree that load testing a traditional "wet" battery is the way to go. however with cars coming with AGM batteries more and more, you are not supposed to load test AGM batteries. only conductance testing is allowed.

                          And with the future looks like lead acid batteries are going bye bye and lithium batteries are the future.

                          and the only way to test them would be through the diagnostic software.

                          I normally check for draws by putting a home made kill switch on the negative end of the battery, and hook up my DVOM in parallel. that way i can open the door, turn the key on, lights, radio, work windows ect, ect. and then open the kill switch, thus putting the dvom as the sole path for current. and wait and measure. anything over .060 amps after a hour is generally a draw for me.

                          then the real fun begins..
                          Yep. Once you KNOW you have a draw, installing a "knife switch" and going to direct amperage through a DVOM is the way to go. Sure, you can use a scope IF it shows direct amperage as the Vantage-PRO does, but is it really necessary-??
                          There was a knife switch that came with the old white case ALLEN diagnostic scope circa 1975. I still have it and it works.
                          By using the knife switch, the circuit never goes "open", even for a moment. It is simply redirected through the meter in parallel immediately.

                          As for AGM and lithium batteries, yes they can be load tested and they can be charged as well. You just have to be not as aggressive with the amperages and voltages.
                          ANY battery is using the same fundamental technology of dis-similar compounds to create an electromotive force.

                          Comment

                          • tech25
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2017
                            • 172

                            #14
                            Agm, wet, gel are lead acid batteries at the core, lithium batteries are totally different, you cannot load test a 500 volt hybrid battery to test it,

                            Charging them is by very specific voltages

                            Comment

                            • SnapOnKid
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 870

                              #15
                              Witsend, You still have this pile???

                              By any chance, does it have a bluetooth module, garage door opener, map lights lamp thingy on the roof by the rear view mirror? is there a circuit board when you pull it down?

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