P0301 on a 76K 2005 Saturn ION 2.2

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  • Witsend
    Banned
    • Nov 2012
    • 2942

    P0301 on a 76K 2005 Saturn ION 2.2

    This car had high misfire counts and basically would only miss at idle, like a vacuum leak , or dirty fuel injector , another shop already had changed coil pack, plugs , and ignition module. No fuel injector balance test was available on either Port Freight 08 or my Snap On Brick that covers 2005 MY
    Because it has a coil pack assembly and not separate coils with short wires (like The 5.3 L I last tested compression).Was unable to get the awesome bar graph Cranking Amps test feature on my ancient Counselor 2 to work.There was no relay or fuse in the engine compartment fuse box Labeled fuel pump to remove and disable it's fuel pump quickly ,so I had to resort to the Clear Flood WOT method to prevent engine starting which ruined my plan of using #1 fuel injector pulse as a trigger.I had to select lab scope and set to 1volt and 100MS (still using High amp probe). I compared the humps and noticed that one wasn't as high as the rest. Knowing that I had a missfire code for #1 with high miss fire counts history, I confirmed my hunch that the cylinder attributed to the smaller hump would be #1. I confirmed only 120psi with a compression gauge. I pulled out cylinder 4 plug also and confirmed at least 190psi. Knowing both cylinders reach TDC together I put a long thin bladed screw driver down #1 spark plug hole and the long screw drive measured at the same height as down #4 from the piston crown , so I knew the #1 rod was still straight. Cylinder leakage test on #1 confirmed there was high leakage past the exhaust valves. Looks like another low mileage GM be getting a new set of 8 exhaust valves. Customer said it did once get hot when the radiator went out 5 years ago, but hasn't had any overheat issues since.He was driving it around with a wrong air filter that was too small for the air box, but no piston ring sealing issues yet
    Seems to me with today's Hi tech capabilities that the expensive new Verus Edge doesn't offer the feature of a nice bar graph display for relative compression test like the Ancient Counselor, Ford SBDS, WDS, and IDS offers. Guess for 10 grand you still Gotta Hump it.
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    Last edited by Witsend; 05-10-2017, 08:13 AM.
  • Witsend
    Banned
    • Nov 2012
    • 2942

    #2
    I wonder why with the superior processing advantage that a Verus has over a huge antiquated old Counselor 2 or Sun Machine that the relative compression test displayed as just a bunch of humps was a step forward into the past.
    Last edited by Witsend; 05-11-2017, 11:01 AM.

    Comment

    • Glide
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2015
      • 303

      #3
      The Tech2 (introduced in 1992) has a nice misfire graphic as well.
      Ford IDS and some others suck as they only work properly at idle,not on a test drive at highway speed.

      Comment

      • Tech_A
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2014
        • 115

        #4
        Originally posted by Witsend
        This car had high misfire counts and basically would only miss at idle, like a vacuum leak , or dirty fuel injector , another shop already had changed coil pack, plugs , and ignition module. No fuel injector balance test was available on either Port Freight 08 or my Snap On Brick that covers 2005 MY
        Because it has a coil pack assembly and not separate coils with short wires (like The 5.3 L I last tested compression).Was unable to get the awesome bar graph Cranking Amps test feature on my ancient Counselor 2 to work.There was no relay or fuse in the engine compartment fuse box Labeled fuel pump to remove and disable it's fuel pump quickly ,so I had to resort to the Clear Flood WOT method to prevent engine starting which ruined my plan of using #1 fuel injector pulse as a trigger.I had to select lab scope and set to 1volt and 100MS (still using High amp probe). I compared the humps and noticed that one wasn't as high as the rest. Knowing that I had a missfire code for #1 with high miss fire counts history, I confirmed my hunch that the cylinder attributed to the smaller hump would be #1. I confirmed only 120psi with a compression gauge. I pulled out cylinder 4 plug also and confirmed at least 190psi. Knowing both cylinders reach TDC together I put a long thin bladed screw driver down #1 spark plug hole and the long screw drive measured at the same height as down #4 from the piston crown , so I knew the #1 rod was still straight. Cylinder leakage test on #1 confirmed there was high leakage past the exhaust valves. Looks like another low mileage GM be getting a new set of 8 exhaust valves. Customer said it did once get hot when the radiator went out 5 years ago, but hasn't had any overheat issues since.He was driving it around with a wrong air filter that was too small for the air box, but no piston ring sealing issues yet
        Seems to me with today's Hi tech capabilities that the expensive new Verus Edge doesn't offer the feature of a nice bar graph display for relative compression test like the Ancient Counselor, Ford SBDS, WDS, and IDS offers. Guess for 10 grand you still Gotta Hump it.
        I was raised with the vantage kV module and enjoyed the overall bar graph views. The governing bureau out here (BAR CA) endorses more of an approach using a vacuum transducer and engine firing order (Modis era ish), to isolate a bad cylinder's issue (valves or rings).

        Comment

        • Witsend
          Banned
          • Nov 2012
          • 2942

          #5
          I was raised with the vantage kV module and enjoyed the overall bar graph views. The governing bureau out here (BAR CA) endorses more of an approach using a vacuum transducer and engine firing order (Modis era ish), to isolate a bad cylinder's issue (valves or rings).
          Reply With Quote
          Counselor 2 predates Modis well over a decade has a vacuum waveform option with firing order, though This 05 ION (Ecotech)didn't appear to have a conveniently located vacuum port to tap onto ,and lazy I just didn't feel like teeing something between the brake booster or tapping PCV .

          Comment

          • Tech_A
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2014
            • 115

            #6
            Originally posted by Witsend
            Counselor 2 predates Modis well over a decade has a vacuum waveform option with firing order, though This 05 ION (Ecotech)didn't appear to have a conveniently located vacuum port to tap onto ,and lazy I just didn't feel like teeing something between the brake booster or tapping PCV .
            I can dig it, I never liked to deal with vac lines if i didnt have to, especially the brittle plastic ones.

            I never got to experience a counselor. At my alma mater the only vintage machines we had were the old bear machines, and smog inspection machines ( i believe it was a SUN). I am just intrigued by why certain things are omitted from diagnostic machines / processes when they are still applicable to modern tech. Why take away something that worked so well? Then again I hear all these dealer techs that have to follow a diplomatic process of diagnostic trouble trees and tech help lines, which in turn ends up with a factory diagnostic tool that just spits out instructions.

            Furthermore the diagnostic tool producers strip down their tools to match OEM factory tools because people start demanding more OEM information and reset capabilities. Then you end up with these new tools trying to reinvent vintage technology. Seems like a vicious cycle or a decline in diagnostics.

            Comment

            • Glide
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2015
              • 303

              #7
              Then again I hear all these dealer techs that have to follow a diplomatic process of diagnostic trouble trees and tech help lines, which in turn ends up with a factory diagnostic tool that just spits out instructions.
              LOL.It's called diagnostic process and no tool that spits out instructions exists yet.When calling a tech line on a "new" problem,the common response is"I'll open a case,call me back when you figure it out".
              What some in private repair shops don't seem to get,is that all the common practices and "common knowledge",and TSB's etc. originate from dealership Techs.

              Comment

              • Witsend
                Banned
                • Nov 2012
                • 2942

                #8
                TSBs usually a convoluted band aid fix for problems caused by a engineering short coming to kick the can down the road for awhile in order to see if an expensive recall can be avoided.

                Comment

                • Crusty
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2007
                  • 2450

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Glide
                  LOL.It's called diagnostic process and no tool that spits out instructions exists yet.When calling a tech line on a "new" problem,the common response is"I'll open a case,call me back when you figure it out".
                  What some in private repair shops don't seem to get,is that all the common practices and "common knowledge",and TSB's etc. originate from dealership Techs.
                  When the GM "TAC" line was first opened, we could get to engineer types (way back when...)
                  After a short while of guys not doing their own homework and fundamental testing, the people on the TAC line were useless and simply read from a script.
                  Some TSB's result from many techs coming up with the same solution that is collated by the engineers.
                  Sometimes the engineers come up with fixes and feed that information back down to the trenches.
                  Today, too many so-called engineers rely on the "make sure the vehicle has the latest calibration" which very often solves nothing.

                  Comment

                  • Crusty
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 2450

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Witsend
                    TSBs usually a convoluted band aid fix for problems caused by a engineering short coming to kick the can down the road for awhile in order to see if an expensive recall can be avoided.
                    Unfortunately, todays world relies on bubble gum patches instead of correcting the ROOT CAUSE of a problem.
                    Many techs can fall into that trap too. Treat the symptom instead of the cause.

                    Comment

                    • Glide
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2015
                      • 303

                      #11
                      When the GM "TAC" line was first opened, we could get to engineer types (way back when...)
                      When TAC was first opened there was one guy who had access to a data bank.
                      I knew him personally,and his only experience was from working at a crappy tire.That was why there was some access to engineers.In later years TAC was populated by winners of Grand Master Technician competitions(like myself) who were interested in the jobs.That worked out well for me because I knew everyone there.
                      "way back when" seems like a blink ago.
                      In more recent years at other brand dealerships technical assistance is nearly useless and you'd do well to find someone whose English you can understand.

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      TSBs usually a convoluted band aid fix for problems caused by a engineering short coming to kick the can down the road for awhile in order to see if an expensive recall can be avoided.
                      TSB's are generated after 1500 warranty complaints with the same complaint and correction are completed.
                      Recalls/campaigns are only ever safety related.

                      Comment

                      • Crusty
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 2450

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Glide
                        When TAC was first opened there was one guy who had access to a data bank.
                        I knew him personally,and his only experience was from working at a crappy tire.That was why there was some access to engineers.In later years TAC was populated by winners of Grand Master Technician competitions(like myself) who were interested in the jobs.That worked out well for me because I knew everyone there.
                        "way back when" seems like a blink ago.
                        In more recent years at other brand dealerships technical assistance is nearly useless and you'd do well to find someone whose English you can understand.



                        [I]Since you've stated that you've been at GM dealers for 23 years, the time frame I was referring to was at least 10 years earlier than that.
                        When the DIS first came out, there was no spec for the secondary tower to tower resistance. There were two types used. One was made by Magnavox and the other was Remy. Eventually the resistances were published and they were different between the two systems of DIS.
                        As I said, there were some engineer types on the TAC line who would discuss things with the actual guy who designed a particular part of a system, and thus they were very good. Most of the problems that were head scratchers were of the intermittent EMI/RFI, transient voltage kind of thing. That led to some interesting introductions of various grounds, resistors, capacitors, etc, strategically placed in to the vehicle systems.
                        I know a couple of people who later went to answer the phones, and while they were OK guys, their skill level was not technical, and no, they were not any of the shining stars of the Grand Master Technicians Guild. (There isn't any more room on my walls for the plates, plaques & certificates)
                        The reason they put more first call people on the phones was because too many people in the dealerships were either unable, or unwilling, to do their own basic testing.[/I
                        ]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                        TSB's are generated after 1500 warranty complaints with the same complaint and correction are completed.
                        Recalls/campaigns are only ever safety related.
                        GM has issued many campaigns over the years that were simply in the interest of customer satisfaction, and not only safety recalls/campaigns, but then again, the time frame of reference seems to be different.
                        I tried to change the colour of my text but for some reason the site wouldn't let me change colours, only text size & italics

                        Comment

                        • Glide
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2015
                          • 303

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Crusty
                          GM has issued many campaigns over the years that were simply in the interest of customer satisfaction, and not only safety recalls/campaigns, but then again, the time frame of reference seems to be different.
                          I tried to change the colour of my text but for some reason the site wouldn't let me change colours, only text size & italics
                          I was at a GM dealer for 23yrs.It has since closed 9 yrs ago.Prior to that I was at a GM dealer for 2 yrs and prior to that a couple of service stations taking me back til the middle seventies.Since then I have been at 2 other dealers,one of them twice, not GM, and a got a private repair center up and running.
                          And yes frame of reference seems to be an issue.I remember when we used to put he little yellow stickers on the rad support that said safety campaign with the number on them when we completed them.

                          Comment

                          • wrenchtamer
                            Junior Member
                            • May 2017
                            • 9

                            #14
                            Just to speak on the OP, I had a counselor 2 that I got for free from a shop that was closing and I loved it. I have and had faster scopes but it was an awesome tool. When it finally died I played some bagpipes and cannibalized the leads to adapt them for the newer tools. Yeah that took a while but I got the octo lead working so the legacu lives on.

                            Comment

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