Eliminating the parking brake shoes, anyone else guilty?

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  • Witsend
    Banned
    • Nov 2012
    • 2942

    Eliminating the parking brake shoes, anyone else guilty?

    Scenario , Rear Brake job price quoted on a 14 year old salt belt Lexus with 204K, needs tires and all sorts of other work. I sell the pads , rotors , and both rear brake calipers with brackets as well as front stab links and serpentine belt.
    Get ok and proceed to attempt to pull rear calipers off but need to use the torch to heat the caliper brackets to get the freaking frozen bolts freed (probably were lock tited besides), then pull rotors and they are both hung up on parking brake shoes and I bust a parking brake shoe hold down spring retainer on each side. I could chase to a kind of far away parts store for a $25 hardware kit and heat the eight rear hub bolts and maybe have to slide hammer off the frozen rear hubs from the rear knuckles (damaging the hubs) so I have easier access to replace the parking brake hardware without having fits. I decide to just pull the rusty shoes off and wedge the cables. I feel bad like such a Hack doing this but sometimes you got to do what you got to do .
    St Christopher and St. Nick please pray for me and my customer that he never has a reason to apply his parking brake for eternity . Amen
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  • Crusty
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2007
    • 2450

    #2
    Originally posted by Witsend
    Scenario , Rear Brake job price quoted on a 14 year old salt belt Lexus with 204K, needs tires and all sorts of other work. I sell the pads , rotors , and both rear brake calipers with brackets as well as front stab links and serpentine belt.
    Get ok and proceed to attempt to pull rear calipers off but need to use the torch to heat the caliper brackets to get the freaking frozen bolts freed (probably were lock tited besides), then pull rotors and they are both hung up on parking brake shoes and I bust a parking brake shoe hold down spring retainer on each side. I could chase to a kind of far away parts store for a $25 hardware kit and heat the eight rear hub bolts and maybe have to slide hammer off the frozen rear hubs from the rear knuckles (damaging the hubs) so I have easier access to replace the parking brake hardware without having fits. I decide to just pull the rusty shoes off and wedge the cables. I feel bad like such a Hack doing this but sometimes you got to do what you got to do .
    St Christopher and St. Nick please pray for me and my customer that he never has a reason to apply his parking brake for eternity . Amen
    Sorry Witsend. I think you are 100% wrong here for a number of reasons.

    From your end, YOU are now responsible for further disabling a SAFETY component. The lawyers would have a field day with your work on this one.

    It makes absolutely no difference if it's 15 years old, or if it's a rust bucket, or if it has 204K on it, or if the tires are bald, or if it needs lots of other work, or any other reason.
    The vehicle should NOT BE ON THE ROAD ENDANGERING OTHER PEOPLE-!!
    This vehicle owner can drive the thing up into the local reforestation area and plant himself into a tree if he so wishes to. He HAS NO RIGHT to endanger others on PUBLIC ROADS-!!!

    I'm sorry if they are financially unable to fix thing heap, or they can't afford another set of wheels but that is ONLY THEIR PROBLEM, and no one else's.

    Several thousand pounds of potential rolling death is what every vehicle is, even when they are in a good state of repair.

    You really did not do this person any favours-!!!
    While driving on public roads may be a necessity for a lot of us, it is not a "right". KNOWINGLY operating an unsafe vehicle is exactly the same as driving drunk. Vehicular MANSLAUGHTER is still manslaughter-!!!!

    I sincerely hope this vehicle owner sees the correct course of action and makes other arrangements for their transportation.

    All the best this Holiday Season. I hope everyone stays healthy.

    Comment

    • maven
      Senior Member
      • Mar 2014
      • 269

      #3
      Im with Crusty here Wit.

      If you felt bad, means you knew it was wrong and shouldnt have done it.You let the dollar guide your actions instead of your integrity and professional judgement. This was penny wise and dollar foolish.

      Did you inform the customer of this problem and they declined the repair or did you make the choice on your own?

      If you did this all on your own without informing the customer youve not only lied to the customer, started a situation that ends with them losing trust for you and bad mouthing you to others you also actually CREATED a safety hazard on their vehicle. This is beyond negligence or allowing an unsafe condition to persist(which is how most auto related lawsuits go) you actively, intentionally caused this issue, and rendered a vehicle system inoperative. Theres not a single court of law or public opinion in which you would come out the victor in this scenario.

      If the customer was informed of the issue and declined the proper repair you still had a tough choice to make as to whether to not repair the brakes at all and upset the customer, or perform the repair and get waivers and signatures advising of the fact they opted to remove this feature(though even this option isnt advisable for a tech/shop owner)

      Comment

      • Trindaddy
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2010
        • 339

        #4
        Hey Wits. It's easy too see you are in a rust zone like myself and this sorta thing does come up...too often. The best I can say is make sure the customer signs some very specific paperwork if they decline to fix on-the-spot.

        Take this to heart:

        NO ONE cares about how that job ended up..........until someone gets hurt. Although it's not likely, if someone gets hurt/killed in that car, especially from say a blown brake line/hose/caliper etc the inspectors and lawyers are gonna hang you from the highest tree. I was subpoenaed to assist in a case similar to this many years ago and boy did it get ugly. The inspector (who put the sticker on) got 10 yrs and the place now has grass growing through the parking lot.

        Comment

        • Joe Rappa
          Snap-on DSD
          • Aug 2007
          • 2050

          #5
          Wise words Trindaddy. Having sympathy for the customers wallet is more dangerous than fixing it for free sometimes. The lesson there is: Don't do it.
          Joe
          "You don't build a reputation on what you're going to do"
          Henry Ford

          Comment

          • wagzilla
            Member
            • Oct 2014
            • 54

            #6
            I love living in Arizona, My first tool is not a torch!!

            Comment

            • Witsend
              Banned
              • Nov 2012
              • 2942

              #7
              A torch is a necessity

              Years ago when cars had rear wheel drive , 50-50 weight distribution ,single chamber master cylinders , 2 or 3 inch wide rear shoes , and really weighed 3 tons, The parking brake could truly be considered an emergency brake and could actually help stop a car in the event of a hydraulic failure because it used the actual rear stopping media. Now a days your only hope is to pump the brake rapidly . Any paper thin half inch wide parking brake shoes that fit inside the hub of a rear rotor should be able to prevent a car from starting to roll from a dead stop on a 15% grade if the parking pawl is broke, but not good for much else.
              Lawyers be damned , I consider any non useful rusted tinker toy shoes and frozen parking brake cables to be Mandatory Disposable Items on any 15 year old beater if the replacement exceeds my patience level and the customer's budget. I already got weeds growing on my property anyway and sooner or later I'll have to cut em and toss them like old tinker toy parking brake cables and shoes. I'm Guilty , Guess they'll Hang Me by my Balls.
              I confess I once had a 1986 Toy-Lette aka Chevy Nova which was basically a rebadged Toyota Corroada with a rear brake line that had rusted out. it was due for new wheel cylinders. and both rear feed lines. I had to get to work the next day or be fired, so I horse shoed the prop valve and eliminated the rear brakes completely. Forgot about it and drove it for 3 months that way, my ex took took it to Colorado and no one has heard a word from her since.
              Happy New Year to everyone , don't let me put the brakes on it!
              Last edited by Witsend; 12-31-2014, 01:44 PM.

              Comment

              • David Green
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 382

                #8
                For me anyway if the customer can't afford or does not authorize the repairs to be carried out to the manufacturer recommendations, then no work should be carried out at all on the vehicle, if you do then the court will not accept excuses, you are the expert and you took it upon yourself to carryout the work, which should always be carried out to the manufacturer recommendations.

                What is it that causes people to get involved and do jobs to such a substandard?

                Is it the need for a few dollars and frightened of losing the job?

                There is over here a lot of talk about licensing the trade, but my personal view is that it will never happen because the costs involved would be significant and policing/enforcing the standards would be cost prohibitive I think.

                Over here Telematics are being used to warn the drivers of vehicles of their servicing and faults and booking the vehicle into the local dealers, thus leading the customers away from the after market, which I don't think is good news at all, but would that stop some of the poor quality repairs from ever happening?

                I can at the moment think of one good example that was recently on a forum that would justify our trade being licensed and the license being categorized as to the technicians training and experience available, which is;

                A four wheel drive vehicle braking system with an automatic transmission fitted was being discussed about the park brake fitted, the electricians on this forum were justifying their reasons for this vehicle not requiring a park brake being fitted because it was defective and costs to repair it were in their opinion prohibitive given that the vehicle had an automatic transmission and they argued that the park position of the transmission could be used to stop the vehicle in an emergency?

                I replied to the thread and explained why the transmission park position could not be used and uploaded a manufacturer simple diagram of the transmission park locking pawl mechanism to further clarify my explanation to them. The administrators removed my post on the thread and allowed the other members to carry on justifying their reasoning and abilities to not repair the park brake on this vehicle.

                I can honestly say that I have had a few vehicles in my time presented to me with automatic transmissions fitted where the park brake was clearly inoperative, and I issued a legal fail notification for the said defects, but not even one I can ever remember was ever presented back for a retest, so even over here some fools in our MOT scheme are putting defective vehicles on public roads and justifying themselves for doing so like the electricians above.

                I think the longer term answer over here will probably end up as the vehicles will become too complex for many small garages to work on them and the customers will end up back at the local dealers, leaving again like we had back in the 1970's, limited specialists that will be able to offer the service to the public.

                Happy New Year to All

                Comment

                • Modis500
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 358

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Trindaddy

                  I was subpoenaed to assist in a case similar to this many years ago and boy did it get ugly. The inspector (who put the sticker on) got 10 yrs and the place now has grass growing through the parking lot.
                  Trindaddy,

                  Hearing about some of the court cases that our fellow techs have gone through or have had to testify on reminds me that this is no laughing matter. It also seems they sometimes come down very hard on the tech if a case were to be brought to court, maybe a feeling that the jury could get back at the world of rip-off mechanics and make them feel the pain for all the years of thinking they got overcharged for their work. Sad that society gets like that. Case in point: a tech in the northeast got 20-25 for leaving a master cylinder cap off and "apparently" all the fluid was squirted out. The driver lost brakes and hit a tree and died. Not good that a life was lost, but how often do we see cars come in with no master cylinder cap and the fluid is at a safe level, just contaminated.... I don't believe the fluid was squirted out, but the jury ran away with this and the tech was put away... Just wanted to share this story so if you think they won't put you away for a wheel off or brake malfunction, think again fellow techs.

                  And Happy New Year

                  Tom
                  "If you aim for nothing, you'll hit it every time!"
                  Zig Ziglar

                  Comment

                  • Crusty
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 2450

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Modis500
                    Trindaddy,

                    Hearing about some of the court cases that our fellow techs have gone through or have had to testify on reminds me that this is no laughing matter. It also seems they sometimes come down very hard on the tech if a case were to be brought to court, maybe a feeling that the jury could get back at the world of rip-off mechanics and make them feel the pain for all the years of thinking they got overcharged for their work. Sad that society gets like that. Case in point: a tech in the northeast got 20-25 for leaving a master cylinder cap off and "apparently" all the fluid was squirted out. The driver lost brakes and hit a tree and died. Not good that a life was lost, but how often do we see cars come in with no master cylinder cap and the fluid is at a safe level, just contaminated.... I don't believe the fluid was squirted out, but the jury ran away with this and the tech was put away... Just wanted to share this story so if you think they won't put you away for a wheel off or brake malfunction, think again fellow techs.

                    And Happy New Year

                    Tom
                    Vehicle SAFETY and PROFESSIONALISM is paramount-!

                    Nobody's life is worth whatever the price is to keep a vehicle in a safe state of repairs, even if that means the owner can't drive the vehicle another foot or yard.

                    As a collective group WE all need to take the high road regarding safety. It could be you or one of your loved ones who is injured or killed by an unsafe vehicle or driver. It might not be the one YOU worked on and "cut a corner" but it could be one that someone else cut a corner on.

                    Hope everyone has a happy and SAFE 2015-!

                    Comment

                    • Witsend
                      Banned
                      • Nov 2012
                      • 2942

                      #11
                      Jose they will see by the dawn's early light ( if you don't )

                      Car came in with no brake pedal, I was too far into the job on a Christmas eve to say No, I can't do it now. Basically boxed up the pieces and told him to save the shoes and bring me 2 new rear hubs and a hardware kit and I'll change out the parts for free. It's a neighbor's son in law and I will be following up on getting the parking brake working again.
                      "What, me worry?" Alfred E. Newman

                      Comment

                      • Trindaddy
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2010
                        • 339

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Modis500
                        Trindaddy,

                        Hearing about some of the court cases that our fellow techs have gone through or have had to testify on reminds me that this is no laughing matter. It also seems they sometimes come down very hard on the tech if a case were to be brought to court, maybe a feeling that the jury could get back at the world of rip-off mechanics and make them feel the pain for all the years of thinking they got overcharged for their work. Sad that society gets like that. Case in point: a tech in the northeast got 20-25 for leaving a master cylinder cap off and "apparently" all the fluid was squirted out. The driver lost brakes and hit a tree and died. Not good that a life was lost, but how often do we see cars come in with no master cylinder cap and the fluid is at a safe level, just contaminated.... I don't believe the fluid was squirted out, but the jury ran away with this and the tech was put away... Just wanted to share this story so if you think they won't put you away for a wheel off or brake malfunction, think again fellow techs.

                        And Happy New Year

                        Tom

                        I am disgusted by the outcome of your story. I could see this "time" if the intent to do harm was proven. However, if it wasn't and this was a case of an accidental death this is absurd. Hell, I could probably walk up and shoot you in the head and get less than that! Could a rim be forgot loose and cause death and wind us up in jail for 20 yrs? Rape won't get you that much these days! At least not in Vermont. Pitiful and scary. Imagine the liabilty of a doctor...

                        Comment

                        • Crusty
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 2450

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Witsend
                          Car came in with no brake pedal, I was too far into the job on a Christmas eve to say No, I can't do it now. Basically boxed up the pieces and told him to save the shoes and bring me 2 new rear hubs and a hardware kit and I'll change out the parts for free. It's a neighbor's son in law and I will be following up on getting the parking brake working again.
                          "What, me worry?" Alfred E. Newman
                          No brake pedal on Christmas eve......hmmmm.... how did THAT happen in the first place-??
                          Because the owner was totally irresponsible owning and operating a vehicle on public roads in this condition in the first place.
                          Yes, I know, there are hard times for everyone, but that is still no excuse to willfully ENDANGER not only himself, his wife, their kids, AND everyone else on the public roads.
                          Yes, it sounds like a harsh position to take but this person needs a wake up call-!!! What is HIS life worth-?? Now his wife on the other hand....LMAO....depends on the insurance policy....LMAO..... What are his kids' lives worth-??
                          If he knowingly operated an unsafe vehicle in the first place his own insurance company would hang him out to dry, regardless of what anyone else would do to him. He may as well just plunk his balls on the table and take the hit-!!

                          On a positive note, good for you that you're going to CORRECT the condition of the vehicle. I hope that happens ASAP.
                          As for the price of doing it for free, well, they owe you a whole lot more than just a case of Miller-!!!! ALL of us a worth a whole lot more than that.

                          Show your neighbour and his son-in-law this thread. They may be pleasantly surprised and informed that there are some ethical wrench-heads out there.

                          We're not out to screw people over, just fix broken vehicles, or perhaps MAINTAIN a vehicle so people don't find themselves in trouble on Christmas eve in the first place.

                          Sorry if anyone feels that I've been moralizing too much here. My intent is just encouraging proper and safe vehicle services.

                          Hope your fix up back to factory original design and intent goes well for you AND them-!!!

                          All the best to everyone in 2015-!!!

                          Comment

                          • Modis500
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2012
                            • 358

                            #14
                            Trindaddy,

                            I was also disgusted when I read the story of the tech getting such a heavy sentence. I'm sure he'll get out sooner with good behavior, but who knows. I've never heard of a wheel off causing a death, and I hope I never will. I hope no one on this forum or any tech I know will ever have to go to court. We just need to keep a healthy respect for the cars we work on and the owners that drive those cars. Maybe what Witsend was getting at with the removal of the park brake system is that we need to step back and tell the customer it's TTJY (take to junkyard!). I realize he's a beer loving mechanic, but had no intent of harming anybody.
                            "If you aim for nothing, you'll hit it every time!"
                            Zig Ziglar

                            Comment

                            • Trindaddy
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2010
                              • 339

                              #15
                              I'm sure he didn't. I'll bet the reservoir cap guy didn't either. Sometimes we think with our hearts and out of necessity.

                              Be careful everyone. May the powers that be watch over us during this new year and beyond.

                              Neil

                              Comment

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