Getting More Brands in Snap-On scanners.

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  • Bob's Garage
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2007
    • 3257

    Getting More Brands in Snap-On scanners.

    For years I have always wondered why Snap-on has ignored Suzuki, Land Rover, Volvo and others on scanner capabilities. Ok, I know, that there some plans....

    And a lot of brands that Snap-on covers are really just Generic data with some Troubleshooter info. Subaru and Isuzu come to mind.

    Yes, I admit it. I bought a Launch X431. I had to! Do I like it? Not really. The screen is monochrome and it's true it doesn't always communicate.

    Did Launch help me fix some cars? Yup! I had to use the Launch! Otherwise, I would had to turn away that 1999 Volvo S-80 with multiple module issues. And as it turned out I made some good money on that job.

    Since the economy has been bad we are not turning away any cars. We used to shudder when a Jaguar showed up, but we just fixed another one.

    Every week, the other tools guys come in my shop touting the capabilities of Launch. To be honest, they have some good points. Launch is really taking off now. A lot of shops are buying that scanner, because it does a hell of a lot for the money!

    Now I have noticed that there is "Help" for codes on Launch, similar to "Troubleshooter"

    Are we gonna sit here and let Launch take away more of the scanner market? As some of you know, I am a loyal Snap-on user. I post a lot to help improve the tool, if it sounds like complaining, I just hope something comes out of it.

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob's Garage; 07-09-2010, 07:01 AM.
  • Joe Rappa
    Snap-on DSD
    • Aug 2007
    • 2050

    #2
    Hi Bob,
    Anytime I offer an opinion on a topic like this, I have to give my regular disclaimer. I don't pretend to speak for Snap-on..not for the engineering guys, and not for their marketing guy either.

    That said, like any company, Snap-on wants to survive, even prosper, and has a business plan to do it. Some companies compete on price, some on quality. We know which stategy SO uses, and that's the biggest reason SO started this forum, and the "What do I want added to my scan tool" forum. It is to make them more competitive and increase the quality of the tool. It's works pretty well too. I recommend you start this thread over there.

    Here is some "inside info" to help you understand how SO evaluates what get added to the scanner. SO works with a sampling of shops that allow them to see what types of vehicles they service, and what problems they have with them. It gives them the ability to rank customer requests. More commonly serviced cars have a higher likelihood of getting features added quickly then less commonly serviced cars. As an example, remember when you requested GM Service Bay Tests? I was added to the scanner less than 90 days later. It's easy to understand that with limited engoneering time, SO wants the biggest bang for the buck, and that was an easy decision.
    Vehicles like Saab, Suzuki, Volvo and Subaru are a lower priority at the moment. Given my wish list, I'd like to see Suzuki get added. Volvo would be great. We see a lot of them in the NorthEast. Same goes for better Subaru coverage. I work on a lot of them too. Even own one at the moment.

    My 2 cents (actual street value)

    Joe
    "You don't build a reputation on what you're going to do"
    Henry Ford

    Comment

    • Steve6911
      Moderator
      • Feb 2007
      • 2168

      #3
      Bob
      Volvo coverage is something I had brought up in the past many times. I was told that overall there was not that much call for Volvo for S.O. to spent their resources on it. My boss’s fix was to buy the Euro package for the shop’s OTC. I won’t even begin to get into that mess, it would take way too long, almost as long as it took them to come up with a Euro update! I demo’d the Launch about 2 ½ years ago, unlike you I did not purchase it. I had WAY TOO MUCH FUN with their Chinese to English translations, poor grammar and spelling errors to even consider this a good tool. To use an IATN term it was a “TINKER TOY†at best. Plus it was VERY hard to update. However if the tool has done a turn around maybe it is time for S.O. to take note of this as they will lose some sales to this tool. I do have access to a Launch and a Baum when needed but I do not care for either. To Snap-on’s credit they have come a VERY LONG WAY in the past few years and I hope this continues. ANY new makes that can be added would help us techs out, but as you stated vehicles like Subaru really need to be more then just OBDII with a troubleshooter added.

      Steve

      Comment

      • kebo1970
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2008
        • 212

        #4
        it may be a better idea for snap on to come out with a scanner just for euro; i don't work on any euro cars. i wish for more functional test on the vehicles already in the scanners now. cylinder contribution tests for more vehicles and evap tests also. i have fixed a lot of cars with snap on tools and realize the limitations of the tools. why would a customer drive a $50,000 car and not want to take it to a place that specializes in that make?

        Comment

        • Steve6911
          Moderator
          • Feb 2007
          • 2168

          #5
          Originally posted by kebo1970
          it may be a better idea for snap on to come out with a scanner just for euro; i don't work on any euro cars. i wish for more functional test on the vehicles already in the scanners now. cylinder contribution tests for more vehicles and evap tests also. i have fixed a lot of cars with snap on tools and realize the limitations of the tools. why would a customer drive a $50,000 car and not want to take it to a place that specializes in that make?
          Kebo
          I don't really understand your post. Why would it be better to come out with a Euro Scanner. More hardware for me to purchase! Snap-on has several great platforms already which they can add the software and if needed hardware to. Snap-on developers would have to spent their resources coming up with the new hardware instead of adding to what they already have. IMO this would be a longer process. Why would someone with a big $$$ car come to my shop instead of one who specializes in that make, I have worked there 18 years, MANY of our customers have been there longer then that and we have earned their trust. Why should they go somewhere else? If my tools support the make I am pretty sure I can fix it. Yes functional tools are very important! S.O. has come a very long way in the past few years. And I am sure that if tests like cylinder contribution are supported by the vehicle S.O. is working to get it on their tools. I think Bob's post was dead on with the need for more coverage so they will always be ahead of the competitors and we (the techs) don't need to purchase other equipment.

          My Three cents (Sorry Joe!)

          Steve

          Comment

          • kebo1970
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2008
            • 212

            #6
            if you have worked at a shop for 18 years you know you can't fix every car that comes to your shop. bob said it in his post that a lot of the cars covered in the scanner have GENERIC coverage with a little troubleshooter. why not improve on the coverage for those cars before adding more GENERIC info for another make!! i wonder why bob used to shudder when a jaguar showed up at his shop; i'll bet it was because you can only get parts mostly from the dealer and the liability if that part does not fix the vehicle. don't tell me you've never MISDIAGNOSED a vehicle and tried to get the customer to pay for it. after you eat a few expensive volvo parts i bet you'll be glad to send them to a dealer. the euro only scanner was just an idea. i wish snap on had ecm pinouts for 90% of the vehicles covered in the component test menu; just another idea. i'm all for upgrades but in the right areas. i hope you understand now steve.

            Comment

            • Bob's Garage
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2007
              • 3257

              #7
              Euro coverage vs. need for Euro scanner.

              Hi Kebo,
              I for one, don't think we need a seperate hardware piece just to do Euro. It stands to reason that it would cost us all more. At that point I would suggest a Launch or a Vedis. The point is to get Snap-on to cover more brands so that we don't have to buy another scanner to cover the holes.

              Also, the point about sending a customer to the dealer is what we are arguing about. Do we want to make ourselves appear less capable? I agree that Euro cars are harder to understand and harder to get parts for and more expensive to fix. This opens the door to profitability, in an economy that doesn't allow for work to be turned away. If your scanner covers the product well and you have a good understanding of the data you see, have good Troubleshooter info, you will not put unnecessary parts on those cars and make customers pay for them.

              It seems that dealers should be the place to go, but time and time again, they prove they are not, because diagnosis is secondary to pattern failure parts replacement.

              Case in point, we recently had a BMW Z-3 in. The dealer had bombarded his car with parts, didn't fix a damn thing and had the nerve to tell the guy that his car was fine, that he shouldn't have to set readiness for OBD testing. That was the problem the customer brought the car in for in the first place! They never fixed it and charged him big money over 4 visits for the same problem. I hope you see my point.

              Bob
              Last edited by Bob's Garage; 07-11-2010, 08:26 PM.

              Comment

              • kebo1970
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2008
                • 212

                #8
                how do you diagnose a no communication issue? the scanner in most cases won't help you. your scope may or may not help you. after checking lots of wires,fuses and relays; how do you fix the vehicle? you have to guess and hope the pcm is the problem. the last time i checked there is not a tool to effectively check a pcm. flashing a euro car with a generic programmer is fifty fifty at best. do you want to take on that liability? try explaining that to a customer. profit is a two way street(NON-PROFIT AND PROFIT). i agree the dealer is no better than an independent, but for parts they have an inventory. if the part does not work they have the ability to put it back on the shelf; we do not. i'm on your side about adding power to the scanners; lets add power to what's in the scanner already. by the way what fixed the bmw z-3? THE EURO ONLY SCANNER MAY HAVE BEEN A BAD IDEA.
                Last edited by kebo1970; 07-11-2010, 09:35 PM. Reason: SPELLING

                Comment

                • Crusty
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2007
                  • 2450

                  #9
                  When the scanner displays a vehicle make, we then enter that year/make/model/engine, etc. Then it's EXTREMELY maddening when the datastream is no more than OBDII information which should be available through the OBDII anyway.
                  When SO doesn't display a Suzuki (for example), we know that we should be able to get into OBDII and at least get GENERIC data & codes & mode-6, and anything else mandated by FTP.
                  When a vehicle is listed and all we get is OBD information, it's tantamount to false advertising for SO to claim they cover that vehicle.
                  If the OBD works, they cover EVERYTHING.
                  The EOBD is another thing, but don't all makes HAVE to display OBDII if it's '96 or newer & sold in this market??
                  Ya, more coverage would be nice but the MISLEADING information in lots of the vehicles listed should be stopped. If all ya get is OBDII then SO shouldn't CLAIM they cover it. A $79.95 "scanner" will do THAT-!
                  If the software engineers decide to omit pids in the vehicles they claim to cover, and then only display 36 of what should be 40 pids, then that coverage isn't complete either.
                  If the PCM is putting out the pids, they're available at the ALDL.

                  A) include all the pids
                  B) make the data displayed accurate
                  C) make the saved files available for review later
                  (which isn't an issue apparently if you coughed up the money for a verus 'cause the SSC built into it works but that ain't so for us Solus-pro, Solus or Ethos owners)
                  (Has anyone tried to play back an OBDII recording recently using the SSC program?? Even that won't work with files created by the software for my Solus-Pro)
                  D) only claim coverage dispalying a make/model if it's more than just OBDII
                  E) fill in the missing coverage SLOWLY so the information meets the A-B-C above.

                  As long as we can get to the data, we should be able to decipher what the PCM is seeing as faulty, causing code sets or driveability issues. That's where manuals, DMM's, labscopes, and THEN bi-directional controls comes in as directed by code sets, etc.

                  AFTER that, reflashing comes in but a reflash tool or capability still depends on accessing the proper files to reflash with which requires additional subscriptions to OEM sites. Dealer or mobile reflashers ( , trenchcoats included) are another option.

                  Without the CORRECT BASIC data, then we have no way of knowing whether we need to perform another test, manually command a bi-directional function or reflash, or anything else.

                  If the OBDII works, SO can CLAIM coverage for everything 1996 & newer NOW.
                  Last edited by Crusty; 07-12-2010, 01:47 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Steve6911
                    Moderator
                    • Feb 2007
                    • 2168

                    #10
                    Originally posted by kebo1970
                    if you have worked at a shop for 18 years you know you can't fix every car that comes to your shop.
                    18 1/2 years to be exact with 31 years total in the field, and I never said I could fix every car, I said "I am pretty sure I can fix it". I have A LOT of resources. Ask-A-Tech, These forums, friends in both dealers and Indy shops, IATN and Direct Hit, so yes IF my tool supports the vehicle I am pretty sure I can fix it
                    bob said it in his post that a lot of the cars covered in the scanner have GENERIC coverage with a little troubleshooter. why not improve on the coverage for those cars before adding more GENERIC info for another make!!
                    Look at the last sentence in my response to Bob
                    i wonder why bob used to shudder when a jaguar showed up at his shop;
                    Maybe because pre Launch purchase his tools did not support these vehicles, is that correct Bob?
                    i'll bet it was because you can only get parts mostly from the dealer and the liability if that part does not fix the vehicle.
                    I'm a driveability tech, most of my parts come from the dealer, I find Aftermarket parts to mostly be overpriced junk or overpriced reboxed OE
                    don't tell me you've never MISDIAGNOSED a vehicle and tried to get the customer to pay for it.
                    Of course I have misdiagnosed vehicles, BUT my customers do not pay for that!
                    after you eat a few expensive volvo parts i bet you'll be glad to send them to a dealer. the euro only scanner was just an idea. i wish snap on had ecm pinouts for 90% of the vehicles covered in the component test menu; just another idea.
                    And a very good one! Why not post it in the What I Want Forum?
                    i'm all for upgrades but in the right areas. i hope you understand now steve.
                    Not really
                    Steve
                    Last edited by Steve6911; 07-12-2010, 04:36 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Bob's Garage
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 3257

                      #11
                      Response to Steve and Kebo

                      Well, I will say I am really glad that there is some fire in this thread, that's good to get it out on the table.

                      About my Jag comment, Kebo commented:
                      " i wonder why bob used to shudder when a jaguar showed up at his shop; "

                      Oh yeah, I still remember trying to diagnose an ABS problem that, believe it or not, was causing an emissions failure, it was actually a C-code. As it turns out the PCM uses the RF ABS sensor for VSS. Yes indeed, that's what I had to fix. I had just purchased a used DVD with JLR software for IDS, and for less than $200 I had the factory scan tool. I didn't even look or care to see how well Launch covered Jag. Yeah, I should have taken a look but there was such a learning curve on JLR for IDS (not even close to Ford IDS) I simply didn't have time. I have a Jag S- series at the shop now, I think I will see how the Launch compares.


                      Steve asked:
                      "Maybe because pre Launch purchase his tools did not support these vehicles, is that correct Bob?"

                      Well, like I said earlier, we take in every make of car. That is why I bought the Launch. It was a gamble for me. The Launch comes out only when I get in a vehicle the Snap-on doesn't cover like Daewoo, Volvo or just has Generic data like Subaru, Isuzu or similar brands.

                      I have to level with you guys now. I have found a way to get 8 factory scan tools out of two tools. I have IDS, with VCM software that covers Ford-LM , Mazda, Land Rover and Jag. I have Tech 2 with GM, Suzuki, Isuzu and Saab cards. This is a great way to get bang for the buck out of just two tools.

                      That is why I do not pull the Launch out very often, because Snap-on covers almost all other vehicles fairly well. The Launch is a big help on Volvo, Subaru and some other rarer cars.
                      [SIZE]
                      Last edited by Bob's Garage; 03-10-2013, 06:23 AM.

                      Comment

                      • Bob's Garage
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2007
                        • 3257

                        #12
                        Answer for Kebo

                        A PCM fixed the BMW. Again he got stroked by the Dealer. He told us he wanted to provide his own PCM and we don't put customer supplied parts on. He got a PCM anyhow and asked us to reprogram his "new" PCM. Since we don't have that capability on BMW, we told him no. We told him the PCM we would have proivided him would have had the latest calibration loaded.

                        So, he took it to the BMW dealer who told him "we can do it but it will take a couple of calibration loads to see which one you will need".

                        Anyhow, he said the second time reprogramming was a charm, but he wouldn't tell us what he paid, probably out of shame or embarrassment that he owns a cherry Z-3 that his dad gave him for free and didn't want to put up the money to fix it right. He fit the category of most 2nd hand BMW owners we have run into. Got the car, don't have the money to fix it!


                        Bob
                        Last edited by Bob's Garage; 10-10-2010, 07:20 PM.

                        Comment

                        • autodoc
                          Junior Member
                          • Aug 2008
                          • 18

                          #13
                          i'm sorry for the guys who keep spending their hard earned cash on overpriced s/o tools and are not getting their value for money. what point is it in paying for instance $5000 for a s/o tool which only covers a few european vehicles and then some domestic american vehicles what about the rest of the japanese makes? how about the korean vehicles?what about the rest of other vehicle manufacturers? i would rather spend $3000 on an aftermarket scantool which gives me the wide range of vehicle manufactures with a bad spelling defination of a fault code as long it points me in the area of the fault & as long as i can click on the touch screen and i can scroll to the odd vehicle make which just rolled in through the garage doorsand find it . which is not tethered to a s/o rep in a van waiting on him to bring me the new updates i can jump online at the click of a button and whalla! i've got my updates that my friends is value for money.not a continual push from your s/o rep to sell you the next overpriced scan tool. i've known quite a few friends of mine over here who's gotten rid of their snapon scan tools.because they ie cant get no communication,they haven't got the vehicle on the scantool,or they cant afford the price for the updates. you know the worst part about it you cant even sell the scantool back for what you paid for it in the first place so you've ended up with a scantool that you cant get rid of because s/o wont buy it back off you.so take it from me s/o are pricing themselves out of the market and before you know it all the real serious techs will be giving up on them

                          Comment

                          • sdlindsey
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2008
                            • 347

                            #14
                            Originally posted by autodoc
                            i'm sorry for the guys who keep spending their hard earned cash on overpriced s/o tools and are not getting their value for money. what point is it in paying for instance $5000 for a s/o tool which only covers a few european vehicles and then some domestic american vehicles what about the rest of the japanese makes? how about the korean vehicles?what about the rest of other vehicle manufacturers? i would rather spend $3000 on an aftermarket scantool which gives me the wide range of vehicle manufactures with a bad spelling defination of a fault code as long it points me in the area of the fault & as long as i can click on the touch screen and i can scroll to the odd vehicle make which just rolled in through the garage doorsand find it . which is not tethered to a s/o rep in a van waiting on him to bring me the new updates i can jump online at the click of a button and whalla! i've got my updates that my friends is value for money.not a continual push from your s/o rep to sell you the next overpriced scan tool. i've known quite a few friends of mine over here who's gotten rid of their snapon scan tools.because they ie cant get no communication,they haven't got the vehicle on the scantool,or they cant afford the price for the updates. you know the worst part about it you cant even sell the scantool back for what you paid for it in the first place so you've ended up with a scantool that you cant get rid of because s/o wont buy it back off you.so take it from me s/o are pricing themselves out of the market and before you know it all the real serious techs will be giving up on them
                            I work in a very busy independent shop -- we service basically anything that comes through the door whether I like it or not. It is true that Snap On doesn't cover every vehicle out there, and doesn't even cover some vehicles that well. I will say this: It is the first scan tool I grab in nearly all cases, and in nearly all cases is the tool that helps me fix the car and get paid.

                            Aftermarket scan tools will always be behind factory tools in most regards -- but sometimes the aftermarket tools provide different features. The graphing capability on any Snap On tool -- even the Ethos and the CGS -- is better than the graphing capability of the Tech2. I'm talking about in-hand in-car graphing, not reviewing a data file later.

                            There are boutique operations -- like VCDS -- that excel at a narrow selection of vehicles at the expense of wider coverage. These tools are also tied to a Windows based PC or laptop. This carries its own issues -- form factory, durability, battery life, and so forth. AutoEnginuity is another popular name -- they carve up their coverage and sell it to you piece by piece, but ultimately it has a pretty hefty price tag considering you have to supply your own hardware.

                            If you feel comfortable purchasing cloned devices or stolen/knock off software and using that on your customer's cars that's your choice. I don't bother. The Snap On diagnostic tools aren't the perfect tool for every job, but the tool gets the job done, in most cases, none-the-less.

                            As for the franchisee dealers you have dealt with -- I guess that is a factor. The people that design, create, and refine the Snap On diagnostic tools have nothing to do with the franchisees. It is true that Snap On defines the marketing and pricing, but how your individual dealer behaves is up to him/her. You could easily not frequent their truck, you could easily purchase on-line directly from Snap On...

                            Your profile says you have a Solus Pro with an 8.2 bundle. If that is true you are sorely behind the times. Quite a bit has changed in the software since 8.2 -- perhaps you should take a look and see.

                            Pound for pound, my Snap On tools earn their keep. I've had to purchase special, almost "one off", tools to do certain jobs -- tools that never paid for themselves. If all my tools were lost or destroyed, beyond a certain basic hand set, I'd re-purchase a Snap On scan tool right away.

                            I've been considering looking into AE but I haven't pulled the trigger -- nothing I've seen from them so far has motivated me to spend my money. Nothing from them makes me believe I'll get anything more than what I already have.

                            I'm open minded and always looking for better tooling. Tell me, what scan tool(s) do you use and why? Sell me on them -- what can they do for me?
                            Last edited by sdlindsey; 12-20-2010, 11:08 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Bob's Garage
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2007
                              • 3257

                              #15
                              Digging up old posts for progress check...

                              Wow, since the original post of this thread back in July 2010, Snap-on picked up:

                              Volvo 2000-2011
                              Suzuki 2000-2011
                              Jaguar 2000-2011
                              Land Rover 1996-2011
                              Smart 2005-2011
                              Scion 2004-2012
                              Subaru got an overhaul, with Enhanced data, Functional tests etc..
                              Not bad, not bad at all.. That's one manufacturer per software update.

                              Bob

                              P.S. Forget about Isuzu. they are dropping like flies.
                              And Suzuki annouced they are pulling out due to bankruptcy. Too bad, Snap-on has done a nice job with them.



                              Last edited by Bob's Garage; 03-09-2013, 07:55 PM.

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