those irritating pre configured data groups

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  • Wheel
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2007
    • 719

    those irritating pre configured data groups

    I was working on a 06 Ford van recently and was wanting to view certain data on a test drive, such as o2's, fuel trims, load, MAF pids, speed, gear, etc. I looked over each pre configured data group and could not find all this data together in any one group - and many times data like this needs to be viewed AT THE SAME TIME to be of much value. Reluctantly, I was forced to shut the Modis down and see if the Genisys had these grouped together in one of its groups, which it did this time, so I had to use it instead.
    Different scanner brands group pids differently, but what really sucks in all of them is the lack of flexibility in pre configured data groups. I don't mind the existence of these groups, but we need to be able at times to pull from ALL available data to make our own list for those tough problems, or so each mechanic has the flexibility to use his own style of diagnostics.
    Cookie cutter diagnostics don't always work.
    What do you guys think?
    You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel
  • Crusty
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2007
    • 2450

    #2
    Originally posted by Wheel
    I was working on a 06 Ford van recently and was wanting to view certain data on a test drive, such as o2's, fuel trims, load, MAF pids, speed, gear, etc. I looked over each pre configured data group and could not find all this data together in any one group - and many times data like this needs to be viewed AT THE SAME TIME to be of much value. Reluctantly, I was forced to shut the Modis down and see if the Genisys had these grouped together in one of its groups, which it did this time, so I had to use it instead.
    Different scanner brands group pids differently, but what really sucks in all of them is the lack of flexibility in pre configured data groups. I don't mind the existence of these groups, but we need to be able at times to pull from ALL available data to make our own list for those tough problems, or so each mechanic has the flexibility to use his own style of diagnostics.
    Cookie cutter diagnostics don't always work.
    What do you guys think?
    I think MISSING PIDS....ANY MISSING PIDS....From ANY manufacturer, in ANY data list, be it Transmission, BCM, ABS or Engine, no matter how the data groups are collated is WORSE, Much worse, than a data group that doesn't have what we need to see TOGETHER......

    H-E-Double-L, some VALUABLE and IMPORTANT pids arn't even in the scanner AT ALL-!!!! no matter where you look-!!!

    Yes, being able to select certain pids as the situation dictates would certainly be very usefull where we could select pids as WE need them, not as someone else THINKS we need to see them, or what is EASY for them to put together.

    Ain't gonna happen though.

    (here's a classic.....cooling fan relay ECM commands in a data group WITHOUT the coolant temperature the coolng fans are controlling-!!! WILE-Coyote-!!! Suuuuuuper Genius-!)

    Comment

    • Jay G.
      Administrator
      • Dec 2006
      • 435

      #3
      Originally posted by Crusty
      I think MISSING PIDS....ANY MISSING PIDS....From ANY manufacturer, in ANY data list, be it Transmission, BCM, ABS or Engine, no matter how the data groups are collated is WORSE, Much worse, than a data group that doesn't have what we need to see TOGETHER......

      H-E-Double-L, some VALUABLE and IMPORTANT pids arn't even in the scanner AT ALL-!!!! no matter where you look-!!!

      Yes, being able to select certain pids as the situation dictates would certainly be very usefull where we could select pids as WE need them, not as someone else THINKS we need to see them, or what is EASY for them to put together.

      Ain't gonna happen though.

      (here's a classic.....cooling fan relay ECM commands in a data group WITHOUT the coolant temperature the coolng fans are controlling-!!! WILE-Coyote-!!! Suuuuuuper Genius-!)

      You guys are KILLING me!!!!

      Comment

      • ephratah service center
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2007
        • 143

        #4
        Ditto Crusty we need all the info that is available. For the amount of $ we pay for these tools and what the updates cost and don't you dare miss an update as it will cost twice as much. Never mind that most of the updates are full of glitches, but it will be fixed with the next update which will cost you to fix even though it was not right when it was released.OH wait the new tools are wireless and have a fancy touch screen. Give me a tool that does what it is supposed to and keep all the fancy touch screens and wireless capability.

        Comment

        • Wheel
          Senior Member
          • Jul 2007
          • 719

          #5
          Originally posted by Crusty
          I think MISSING PIDS....ANY MISSING PIDS....From ANY manufacturer, in ANY data list, be it Transmission, BCM, ABS or Engine, no matter how the data groups are collated is WORSE, Much worse, than a data group that doesn't have what we need to see TOGETHER......

          Yep, good point.

          H-E-Double-L, some VALUABLE and IMPORTANT pids arn't even in the scanner AT ALL-!!!! no matter where you look-!!!

          Yes, being able to select certain pids as the situation dictates would certainly be very usefull where we could select pids as WE need them, not as someone else THINKS we need to see them, or what is EASY for them to put together.

          If they could give us an "all pids group" that included every pid the scanner could pull in addition to the existing groups it would certainly help us better utilize the pids that they DID have. It should be one of the chief goals of ANY scan tool maker to make their product as
          flexible as possible for the end user because mechanic A thinks different than mechanic B and who can predict the next car in their bay? Each knows what HE needs to see to convince him if something is working ok or not and it may require different pids even with same car same problem, and that is hard to predict so why try? just put it in the mechanic's hands - problem solved.


          Ain't gonna happen though.

          Maybe not, but we'll see.

          (here's a classic.....cooling fan relay ECM commands in a data group WITHOUT the coolant temperature the coolng fans are controlling-!!! WILE-Coyote-!!! Suuuuuuper Genius-!)
          Good example, and thanks! Can anyone add any more examples where
          pre configured data groups has let you down?
          You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

          Comment

          • Crusty
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2007
            • 2450

            #6
            Originally posted by ephratah service center
            Ditto Crusty we need all the info that is available. For the amount of $ we pay for these tools and what the updates cost and don't you dare miss an update as it will cost twice as much. Never mind that most of the updates are full of glitches, but it will be fixed with the next update which will cost you to fix even though it was not right when it was released.OH wait the new tools are wireless and have a fancy touch screen. Give me a tool that does what it is supposed to and keep all the fancy touch screens and wireless capability.
            Wait a minute....you mean a TOUCH SCREEN didn't fix the car from thirty feet away with that magical WIRELESS touch???

            If only they would give us ALL the pids and information ACCURATELY, some very smart and gifted mechanics/technicians out there would figure out what the vehicle needs.

            Just ONE piece of the puzzle missing and the whole thing is ruined.

            Two Newfies were celebrating at the bar shouting "18-MONTHS, 18-MONTHS-!!!" The bartender said "my, you boys are sure celebrating tonight. What's significant about 18-months?".
            The Newfies replied, "well a puzzle we did took 18-months and we completed it"
            The bartender said "that must have been some kind of large difficult puzzle"
            The newfies replied...."Oh, Aye it sure was-!!! It said right on the box four to six years"

            (....about how long I've been waiting for the CTS pid to be in the same data group as the cooling fan relay pids......along with the IAT and the fuel tank level percent, and the Inches of water column in the EVAP data groups from about 1999 to 2005 GM's........I wonder if the NEWFIES could fix it in 18 months....ROFLMFAO-!!!!)

            Comment

            • Wheel
              Senior Member
              • Jul 2007
              • 719

              #7
              Originally posted by Crusty
              Wait a minute....you mean a TOUCH SCREEN didn't fix the car from thirty feet away with that magical WIRELESS touch???

              If only they would give us ALL the pids and information ACCURATELY, some very smart and gifted mechanics/technicians out there would figure out what the vehicle needs.

              Just ONE piece of the puzzle missing and the whole thing is ruined.

              Two Newfies were celebrating at the bar shouting "18-MONTHS, 18-MONTHS-!!!" The bartender said "my, you boys are sure celebrating tonight. What's significant about 18-months?".
              The Newfies replied, "well a puzzle we did took 18-months and we completed it"
              The bartender said "that must have been some kind of large difficult puzzle"
              The newfies replied...."Oh, Aye it sure was-!!! It said right on the box four to six years"

              (....about how long I've been waiting for the CTS pid to be in the same data group as the cooling fan relay pids......along with the IAT and the fuel tank level percent, and the Inches of water column in the EVAP data groups from about 1999 to 2005 GM's........I wonder if the NEWFIES could fix it in 18 months....ROFLMFAO-!!!!)
              Your puzzle analogy is dead on correct. A single pid by itself, while important, may not be of much value by itself just as you can't tell what the whole picture is by only one piece of the puzzle.
              Most often it is the correlation of one pid to another that is of more value than the actual value of a given pid. Let's say you need to see
              pids A,B, and C and how they interact with one another. You find pid A in the drivability group and nowhere else, pid B in the emissions group and nowhere else, and pid C in the fuel group and nowhere else.
              You can see their values, true, but only one at a time. You can take 3
              different snapshots on 3 different test drives, even under the same circumstances, but you miss that valuable interaction between pids.
              What happens when your intermittent problem happens only during one of these test drives? If you don't see these pids simultaneously, but rather at different times, then you are only comparing apples to oranges. Sorry for being long winded, but I am trying to explain to the guys at Snap On just how important this request is.
              You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

              Comment

              • Crusty
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2007
                • 2450

                #8
                Originally posted by Wheel
                Your puzzle analogy is dead on correct. A single pid by itself, while important, may not be of much value by itself just as you can't tell what the whole picture is by only one piece of the puzzle.
                Most often it is the correlation of one pid to another that is of more value than the actual value of a given pid. Let's say you need to see
                pids A,B, and C and how they interact with one another. You find pid A in the drivability group and nowhere else, pid B in the emissions group and nowhere else, and pid C in the fuel group and nowhere else.
                You can see their values, true, but only one at a time. You can take 3
                different snapshots on 3 different test drives, even under the same circumstances, but you miss that valuable interaction between pids.
                What happens when your intermittent problem happens only during one of these test drives? If you don't see these pids simultaneously, but rather at different times, then you are only comparing apples to oranges. Sorry for being long winded, but I am trying to explain to the guys at Snap On just how important this request is.
                Correct
                Seeing WHAT is happening in several pids needs to be matched/paired/compared to WHEN it's happening.....

                Give us the answers to the BASICS of Who, What, When, Where, How....and we can figure out the issue the machine we're working on is having at that particular moment.

                That's why i used the cooling fan relay pid and the coolant temperature pid example. The cooling fans are commanded on....great....either listen or look and yup...the cooling fans are running....but at WHAT temperature did they turn on at????
                Then the cooling fans are commanded off.....listen and look....yup, the cooling fans are off.....but at WHAT temperature did the ecm command them off at????

                Even with a touch screen or wireless, you can't switch data groups fast enough to gather all the facts of the incident we're investigting, and not just cooling fans and coolant temperature. So many things affect other things, but which came first, the chiken or the egg??
                Seeing WHAT is happening (display ALL pids the vehicle makes available at the ALDL) needs to be shown at the same TIME (WHEN is it happening)

                Even the Newfies had all the pieces of the puzzle.....

                Comment

                • eddiesverus
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 414

                  #9
                  Data Grouping is very important to us as most of you guys have said. I've ran into this a couple of times when I'm checking the EGR and I monitor the MAP, MAF, EGR command, EGR pos, and EGR actual. I find having to be switching from one data list to the other but can't find them in one list. But I've also used the OEM tool like the Tech2 and have found that even it won't list the groups accordingly. I know that a module gives all the Data out, its the Scanner or software programing that group the Pids together and not the vehicle manufacture. A custom select Data list option not in a group list would be nice, that way we could select all the pids we want to view and not depend on what a software engineer thinks we need to view. Software engineers don't work on cars they just write the programing? I know we all ready have a custom select data option, but as we know it only allows us to select from that same data group. We need a Custom Data list from all the available data pids as an Option. Lets just keep on asking and I'm Sure Snappy is listening?
                  Hard Work, commitment, Honesty and not giving up is what Makes us better Tech's

                  Comment

                  • Warren97053
                    Junior Member
                    • May 2013
                    • 7

                    #10
                    grouping

                    maybe you should also give us the option to see all the pids of the engine, or the trans or whatever module we are looking at and let us pick out the pids we want to see. I know we have that ability within the groups now but if there was also a "SEE ALL" section we could fix cars better and faster by picking the related items we NEED to see.

                    Comment

                    • Modis500
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 358

                      #11
                      Warren,

                      Many of us have been asking for custom or add'l PID lists where we can select the PID's we only need at the time....we'll keep asking, but shouldn't hold our breaths while doing it!
                      "If you aim for nothing, you'll hit it every time!"
                      Zig Ziglar

                      Comment

                      • Wheel
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2007
                        • 719

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Modis500
                        Warren,

                        Many of us have been asking for custom or add'l PID lists where we can select the PID's we only need at the time....we'll keep asking, but shouldn't hold our breaths while doing it!
                        From what I understand GM cars are one of the main stumbling blocks
                        to this. Some of us have offered what I think are good suggestions.
                        Don't know how feasible they are or how interested Snap On will be in following up on them.

                        I'm at a loss as to how to convince them of how really vital this issue is in our daily diagnosis - you really have to be out in the field and really need it and not have it to fully appreciate its true and full worth.
                        You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

                        Comment

                        • Crusty
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 2450

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Wheel
                          From what I understand GM cars are one of the main stumbling blocks
                          to this. Some of us have offered what I think are good suggestions.
                          Don't know how feasible they are or how interested Snap On will be in following up on them.

                          I'm at a loss as to how to convince them of how really vital this issue is in our daily diagnosis - you really have to be out in the field and really need it and not have it to fully appreciate its true and full worth.
                          It really has taken WAAAAAYYYY too long but the GM data groups have had a remarkable improvement in 13.2, particularly a lot of the 2000 to 2005 data groups.

                          You're absolutely right that the people making the decisions regarding the functionality of the tools are blissfully unaware of the impact that incomplete or inaccurate data or data that can't be saved for review has, and they should take a turn in our shoes ON THE BENCH, in the real world, not in the office.

                          Comment

                          • badcoupe
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2011
                            • 218

                            #14
                            I really needed to be able combine pids from two sep groups fri on 06 f150 tps and fuel press. would've been great but no avail.

                            Comment

                            • Wheel
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2007
                              • 719

                              #15
                              Originally posted by badcoupe
                              I really needed to be able combine pids from two sep groups fri on 06 f150 tps and fuel press. would've been great but no avail.
                              It seems to me also I have the most trouble on Fords also with
                              incorrectly or incompletely grouped pids. Enough so that my Genisys is often my first grab for a lot of Ford jobs, when my Verus would have otherwise been my first choice.

                              These days a dedicated driveability shop will have an arsenal of scan tools. Snap on's goal should not only be to sell this shop one of their scanners, but also to make it the most desirable first grab for as many situations as possible. The first grab tool is where the money will be spent on updates and accessories first if money is tight and choices must be made. The first grab tool will be replaced with the least hesitation if it meets an untimely end. Purchases of newer generations of the first grab tool will be considered before purchases of others.
                              You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

                              Comment

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