One thing I want before any further updating

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  • Steve6911
    Moderator
    • Feb 2007
    • 2168

    #31
    Transman

    My error, I shouldn't write posts when I'm in a rush. I should have written P0340, NOT P0304. I have since corrected my post, SORRY about that. Being you have 8.2 could you please recheck when you have the time and see what it says for P0340.
    THANKS!
    Steve

    Comment

    • Steve6911
      Moderator
      • Feb 2007
      • 2168

      #32
      Transman

      Here is a link from a earlier post where I showed a member how to do it. You have to scroll down a little to get to it. If you still have problems PM me and I'll help you from there.
      Share with Snap-on Diagnostics, the additional features that you need or desire in our tools. What do the factory tools do that you absolutely need in your Snap-on tool.


      Steve

      Comment

      • transman618
        Member
        • Oct 2007
        • 77

        #33
        Thanks Steve, I'll play around with that and get it to work. I did run the 0340 and yes, it looks like they did correct the error. It states "Camshaft position sensor (CMP) is located on front of timing cover & sends cylinder number signal to ECM"


        Charles

        Comment

        • transman618
          Member
          • Oct 2007
          • 77

          #34
          OK let me try this

          Steve, here is the snap shot of 8.2's correction.


          Charles
          Attached Files

          Comment

          • Crusty
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2007
            • 2450

            #35
            Errors

            The long & short of it is, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. CONFLICTING INFORMATION is 2 sections of the tools.
            INCORRECT INFORMATION-!!!
            Wrong data is worse than no data. If it wasn't something as obvious as whether the vehicle HAS a distributor or not, you could have been sent chasing your tail due to WRONG DATA.
            If it was something more obscure, it could and probably would lead to WASTED TIME.
            In the Solus-Pro, reading a 2001 Dodge Dakota 3.9, the scanner shows only 2 O2 sensors before and after the CAT. IN THE DATABASE IT STATES THAT FIVE (5) VOLTS KEY-ON-ENGINE-OFF IS NORMAL.
            Anything that I've found published by Dodge indicates they are ONE VOLT oxygen sensors.
            IF you change personality keys, go into global OBD, look at the sensors, there are FOUR (4) showing and the Key-On-Engine-Off voltage IS NO WHERE NEAR FIVE VOLTS.
            So we have purchased a high priced tool, that is SUPPOSED to make our lives easier, faster, more ACCURATE, and how are we supposed to know WHICH ONE OF THE TWO CONFLICTING PIECES OF INFORMATION IS CORRECT!
            Checking the sensors with a labscope takes more time. If the datastream is wrong on the Oxygen sensors, WHAT ELSE IS WRONG IN THERE AS WELL?
            An example of your CAM sensor, where it states 11.v REF, what if you only find 5 volts there? Ya, the 11.0v COULD be right, but how are we to be sure EVEN WHEN YOU CHECK IT?
            You could have 5-volts VREF either by design OR because of a high resistance and a voltage drop somewhere else. How are you to know if the machine that you are relying on is FULL of ERRORS?

            Comment

            • Joe Rappa
              Snap-on DSD
              • Aug 2007
              • 2050

              #36
              Crusty, you've had several valid points in this thread..but Snap-on is right on this one. 5V on cold Dodge/Jeep O2s is normal. In fact, there are plenty of instances when there is handy info included in the scanner that is not easily found elsewhere. I know this thread is generally a bashing thread, but there's lots of good stuff in there too. I remember working on a Nissan with an EVAP problem. Shopkey and Alldata both said the range for the FTP Sensor was 3-4 Volts. The Purge Valve Functional Test said the sensor range was 3.34-3.36 Volts. That's a pretty tight range! Guess who was right...and guess what was wrong! Good thing I wasn't using the OEM tool to diagnose it. I'd still be wondering what was wrong with it.
              Be patient on the bugs you report when Beta Testing. Not every fix gets straightened out in the next update. In my experience it sometimes took longer.
              Joe
              Attached Files
              "You don't build a reputation on what you're going to do"
              Henry Ford

              Comment

              • Steve6911
                Moderator
                • Feb 2007
                • 2168

                #37
                Transman
                Thanks for the 8.2 update, it’s good to see that the error has been corrected.

                Crusty
                Joe is correct, 5 volts cold is the norm on Chrysler and Jeep products. Very few if any places have this published. I brought a Scan-graph-fix screen shot to an instructor years ago who swore up, down and sideways that there was no such thing as a 5 volt oxygen sensor. After showing him the shot he told me it must be voltage leakage for the heater circuit. I graphed several from new to old and found MANY to have those readings.

                Joe
                As far as this being a bashing thread, that was not my intent. Before posting this I had spoken to my dealer, rep, and the tech line. No one was sure who “the right person†was to speak to about this. I know from the forum membership rooster that many are from S.O. so I figured posting here would get my point to someone. If anyone thinks this is bashing I apologize! I have tried to keep this civil. I have been adding errors as I find them as proof as they say “one picture is worth a thousand wordsâ€. Screen shots don’t get dyslexic like I did with the p0340-p0304 thing or have mis-spelling in case I spelled dyslexic wrong The thought of correcting errors without updating just seems fair to me, either through ShopStream, the Dealer, or with the internet and a card reader.


                Steve

                Comment

                • Joe Rappa
                  Snap-on DSD
                  • Aug 2007
                  • 2050

                  #38
                  Hi Steve, and everyone else,
                  Sorry about the wording. Definitely no harm or insult intended. Most everyone posting in this thread is an active member of this site, with good things to contribute.
                  This thread started out nicely enough, but as it has grown it seemed to sound more and more like a "Snap-on Sucks" thread...hence my comment. I agree with you 100% that bug fixes should be available to all Scanner platforms. Back when I was working for Snap-on there was some rumor or buzz about bug fixes being available on the next update for all scanner users. For example:Lets say 8.2 software came out, and you didn't want up update your scanner. You could still get the bug fixes and patches for free from the dealer. The update process would be the same, except you wouldn't get the new model year coverage...and wouldn't owe any money. That type of delivery would have minimal cost for Snap-on, but would cost the Snap-on Dealers a little time. That's a possibility I wish Snap-on would explore...well more than that...I wish they would implement it.

                  Back when I owned my own shop, I had AAA Towing. I had this Ford Wrecker that drove me nuts. Every time I drove it I got aggravated. The headlights sucked. It was way too tail-heavy. The brakes pulsated no matter what I did to fix it...and the list goes on. Eventually I sent that sucker down the road and got another Chevy. Then I was happy.
                  This thread reminds me of that old wrecker. I keep thinking if your scanner aggravates you that much, send it down the road, and get something that doesn't aggravate you. Yup, it'll cost you, but that's the way it is. Having faith in your diagnostic equipment is priceless, and not having faith in it is intolerable.

                  Maybe I'm entirely wrong, and have the wrong impression from some of the comments. If so, then I apologize. I'm not trying to give anyone grief (because I don't know any of you well enough to do that), just trying to keep things in perspective. Snap-on is still the best bang for the buck. Yes, it's far from perfect, but show me a scanner with no errors and I'll show you one with way less features.

                  I'll put my soapbox away now! :-)

                  Joe
                  "You don't build a reputation on what you're going to do"
                  Henry Ford

                  Comment

                  • Christopher
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2007
                    • 101

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Joe Rappa
                    This thread started out nicely enough, but as it has grown it seemed to sound more and more like a "Snap-on Sucks" thread...
                    Can you blame them. No one can even get answers, let alone the tooling fixed.

                    After what I have read here and on iatn, I'm scared to update my SP to 8.2

                    NOW, I have already done some sort of patch update to my SP through the Shop Stream Connect, so the system is in place to have MONTHLY PATCH UPDATEs (hint hint snap on).

                    Like it was said before, wrong info is worst then no info.

                    There is also problems with the VP's, meassuring the signal wrong.

                    Comment

                    • Crusty
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 2450

                      #40
                      This is to Joe.
                      And I REALLY like your trailer "you don't build a reputation on what you're going to do". Isn't this all about EXACTLY THAT. What Snap-On hasn't done but are GOING TO DO, or not??
                      I hear what you're saying about information details but the problem is CONFLICTING INFORMATION-! WHICH ONE DO YOU BELIEVE-??
                      In the scanner portion it showed a key-on-engine-off initial voltage of 5-volts. BUT THAT SECTION IS ALREADY WRONG AS THE VEHICLE HAS FOUR O2 SENSORS, NOT TWO.
                      When you go into the OBD section, it shows and displays the correct number of O2 sensors THAT HAVE AN INITIAL VOLTAGE OF ONE-VOLT AS DESCRIBED IN THE MANUALS.
                      I would have to double check to be sure but I scoped the sensors with my Vantage-Pro and I don't remember seing an initial 5-volts.
                      Again, the problem is CONFLICTING information as evidenced by the differences between the vin specific scanner portion and the OBD portion of the software. WHY should we have to go to another tool to verify what the 1st machine is telling us. Ya, if you get a funky signal or pid you check it again but you shouldn't have to do that because of WRONG information.
                      If, as you say they are right about 5-volts then that means the other section IS WRONG.

                      STEVE. I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH YOU. SNAP-ON SHOULD MAKE WHAT IS WRONG, RIGHT-!! They sold us the machines and the software on the basis that it would be correct in the first place. WHO would buy something when the manufacturer says "We'll take THOUSANDS of your dollars but the thing won't work correctly, so be forewarned, buy it at your own risk"
                      Snap-On have played that game for years. We get to PAY MORE for their corrections. These kind of discussions have been around since the 80's. In the Snap-On kingdom, we're just the lackeys.

                      Comment

                      • Crusty
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 2450

                        #41
                        JOE, I just looked closer at your screen shot and your machine shows "upstream o2s" and "downstream o2s" with a plural smal "s" at the end.
                        I'll check today but I don't think the Solus-Pro shows it that way. And besides, how come the OBD portion, which is gettiing exactly the same datastream from the vehicle can tell you WHICH sensor is WHICH.
                        If you get a bad reading on your scanner, do you then replace both because one is broken?? NO. you check it with another tool befor you sell the customer anything BUT KNOWING WHICH ONE TO GO TO CUTS THE TIME REQUIRED IN HALF. Unless, on every vehicle you scan, you go into both sections to get the information. But then you're back to which section is correct-!!!

                        STEVE, there are some O2 sensors that are 5-volt sensors and I believe they were common on some European vehicles in the late 80's & in the 90's. I trusted the parts guys to do their job and source the right one.
                        I forget the terminology for them but they had a 1 to 4 volt typical sweep, or 0.5 volt to 4.5 volt approximately. They are RARE as most manufacturers seem to have gone to the 1-volt sensors.
                        DAMN. Now I'm going to have to go find 'em in my books. Thanks Steve (LOL)
                        I'm late now, I gotta go. No internet at the shop (and uploading any screen shots with dialup just isn't practical)

                        The CRUSTY ONE

                        Comment

                        • transman618
                          Member
                          • Oct 2007
                          • 77

                          #42
                          This is for Joe:

                          Thanks Joe for posting. I know you have probably heard this over and over but maybe you can clarify something for me. You had said something about Snap on talking about giving the free patches when the next software comes out. My thing is, Why should we have to wait for the next update to come out to correct issues. Why cant they do things like Microsoft for instance, or other software companys. I go on my computer and check Dell or Microsoft or Norton weekly for updates, when I see the ones I need, I download them and my computer is constantly up to date. I get free updates while my subscription with each is in effect. Why cant Snap on do the same thing. The MODIS for instance, as you know, with accessories, extra software attachments, etc can run in excess of $10,000. Why cant Snap on spend the money to constantly supply updates like software companys do. We spend that kind of money with them, we need to be able to depend on their ability. I am in no way bashing Snap on. I live on a Snap on truck and will continue to buy Snap on but, whats keeping them from something like continuous updates. Thanks for your input.

                          Charles

                          Comment

                          • Joe Rappa
                            Snap-on DSD
                            • Aug 2007
                            • 2050

                            #43
                            OK...Lotsa stuff to reply to. Hope I don't goof it up!

                            Crusty. The Dodge/Jeep O2s are not 5V. They are normal 0V-1V sensors. They just have a 5V diagnostic signal on them until they are warm. If you want to catch them at 5V, you need to see it when you hit the key, or when you have a bad O2 heater, like on the screen I posted.
                            Re: knowing which sensor is which, and why it doesn't show up as 5V in OBDII. The data streams are not the same. tThe OBDII Data stream won't read O2 voltage over 1V, even when there's more voltage on them than that. Even notice how some cars show engine load % data different on the OEM and OBDII sides? Same goes for O2s. The OEM might list them as upstream and downstream, and OBDII mandates they be labeled as B1S1 and B1S2. The same differences can be seen on fuel trims too. In the last year I noticed that many imports incorrectly report LTFT to the OBDII Data Stream, and many Volvos and Subarus report Rear O2 Voltage as 0V regardless of the voltage that's on it....and the list goes on.

                            Charles, I can only guess at the answer, like everyone else. I no longer work for Snap-on, and even when I did I couldn't speak for what Corporate SO does. My guess: It's about money. Right now it's more profitable to not release patches. When the day comes that it's more profitable to do so (like when Customer Support becomes too costly as a result) then it will change.
                            Joe
                            "You don't build a reputation on what you're going to do"
                            Henry Ford

                            Comment

                            • Crusty
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2007
                              • 2450

                              #44
                              Fri-April-04-08 8:45am (at shop)

                              I found an article from 1991 MOTOR that was referring to testing the "VF" terminal of the "Check Connector" that measures an optimum voltage of 2.5 volts that can run up as high as 5.0 volts and is the "Reflected Voltage" of how a TOYOTA ECM is RESPONDING to the oxygen sensor signal.
                              Somewhere in the deep caverns of my mind, (yes it echos back there sometimes) I'm not sure of whether there may have been an oxygen sensor that did actually measure as much as 5 volts when measured at the sensor.

                              Sat Apr-05-08 ( at home with the blistering fast 46kb dialup)

                              I wasn't just hearing voices. There is a "wide band" oxygen sensor that is LINEAR and Rich is a low voltage and Lean approaches 5-volts. (it doesn't toggle or sweep up & down conventionlly)
                              One application should be a '92 to '95 Civic.



                              JOE. The Solus-Pro wouldn't even communicate with a 2002 Nissan Pathfinder. I had to tell the machine it was a 2001 to get ANYTHING.
                              When my local tech-rep plugged in HIS Solus-Pro we had the same issue *** When the my tech-rep plugged in his MODIS, it must have woken up a "handshake" (as described by my tech-reps' trainer from Snap-On) THEN both his and my Solus-Pro would communicate with this SEVEN YEAR OLD vehicle. They've had SEVEN YEARS to make it right and still havn't. This shows that the software is NOT the same in the Solus-Pro as the Modis as Snap-On has claimed. NOW when I go into datastream, I GET DIFFERENT INFORMATION AND PIDS FROM THE 2001 INFORMATION WHICH WAS THE 800-STALL LINES ANSWER. AGAIN WRONG INFORMATION.
                              And as to being PATIENT WHEN BETA TESTING-!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHEN DO I GET A CHEQUE??!!--------I AM NOT ON THEIR PAYROLL NOR DO I GET ANY PERKS FOR BETA TESTING. I'VE PAID THEM FOR THE RIGHT INFORMATION ALREADY AND I STILL DON'T HAVE WHAT THEY ORIGINALLY SOLD TO ME. THEY HAVN'T DELIVERED A SCAN TOOL THAT OPERATES WITH A REASONABLE, AND I REPEAT, REASONABLE NUMBER OF ERRORS..
                              They rushed the solus-pro out, GOOFED BADLY, and then GOOFED AGAIN WITH A PARTIALLY BUBBLEGUMMED 8.2
                              NOW they want the Modis owners like Steve who, as stated prior, has FOURTEEN UNRESOLVED PROBLEMS to PAY AGAIN. There is no doubt that they will expect ME to pay for their error corrections again too. THIS IS SOP FOR SNAP-ON.
                              This is a Bashing thread?... NO... JUST FACTS THAT SNAP-ON HAS IGNORED AND SUBSEQUENTLY HERE, ON THEIR OWN SITE PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING UP AND, ASIDE FROM EBI-WEBMASTER, NO ONE AT SNAP-ON IS "LISTENING", AS STATED IN THE OTHER THREAD IN SCANNER CAPABILITIES "Not Impressed" by Bigblockcutlass. Check THAT thread out TOO.

                              As for the Upstream O2s, the "s" is for "sensor", not plural. Are they displaying the left bank one, or the right bank one??? If they are combining them, who wants to see a combined average??? of the PAIRED oxygen sensors??? What does it MEAN if they are rich or lean??? If you have one good bank and one bad bank, how can you tell??? But you don't know to start scoping or which one to start scoping first. If one was too rich and one too lean, how could you tell if they're averaged together?? They're NOT paired in the vehicle wiring.
                              I checked with my local Dodge dealer and they used a 5-volt vref to the O2 sensors from about '93 to 2002. Up from that they went to a 7-volt vref according to the OLD-DOG service manager.
                              The whole point is THERE ARE FOUR, NOT TWO, SO WHY AREN'T THEY DISPLAYED?

                              Snap-On "does things right" for their bank account but IMO are not "doing the right thing" for the customer.

                              Comment

                              • Joe Rappa
                                Snap-on DSD
                                • Aug 2007
                                • 2050

                                #45
                                Hi Crusty,
                                I'm not following you on part of the oxygen sensor discussion. On the one I posted, it only has one Front O2 and one Rear O2. There are no others to display, and I've never heard of anyone averaging O2 readings.
                                I understand you had a vehicle that displayed only one bank when there were 2 banks on the car, but you've lost me after that. I'm sure you've written it clearly enough..I'm just not following.

                                I think I've also figured out that you're not an official Software Beta tester, you just stated that because you felt like you were one (am I right about this?). You've purchased software, reported bugs, and they're not corrected by the next release...and that bugs the heck out of you....understandably.

                                Joe
                                "You don't build a reputation on what you're going to do"
                                Henry Ford

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