Loads More Diagnostic Work arriving in January

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  • hefaus
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2007
    • 435

    #16
    Brake stuff over here

    Originally posted by David Green
    Yep unfortunately we do still have drum brakes on the rear of some of our vehicles over the pond , but we also have disc brakes

    I look at it like this;

    Total force acting = hydraulic pressure x contact area of pad(s)

    The frictional force acting as measured = 0.3

    The frictional torque acting on the disc, frictional force x effective radius

    so the contact area of each pad, A = pie/4 x 0.05^2 m^2

    The measured hydraulic pressure, P = 490 x 10^3 N/m^2

    The measured radius, R = 0.15m

    Number of pad(s) 4

    rotational speed of the disc, N = 500 rev/min in this example.

    = 0.3 x 490 x 10^3 x pie x (0.05)^2 x 4 x 0.15 / 4 = 173 N/m

    So the frictional torque = 173 N/m

    That's a disc brake lol

    I could go on to talk about proper brakes but you might not be ready for that yet over the pond
    Hi David. We just fix them over here. Keep Smiling

    Comment

    • daytona dave
      Member
      • Jun 2011
      • 47

      #17
      Originally posted by hefaus
      Hi David. We just fix them over here. Keep Smiling
      well said. (David we all did that sort of **** at college years ago, how much pressure to jack up cars etc etc then we get back to the work shop and find it doesn't matter one jot,) PS a hood is something that's stuck to the back of a coat.
      everybodys mad except me

      Comment

      • Crusty
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2007
        • 2450

        #18
        Originally posted by daytona dave
        well said. (David we all did that sort of **** at college years ago, how much pressure to jack up cars etc etc then we get back to the work shop and find it doesn't matter one jot,) PS a hood is something that's stuck to the back of a coat.
        Ha HA.. LOL... Bonnet....Hood....good one.....

        Comment

        • David Green
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 382

          #19
          Originally posted by daytona dave
          well said. (David we all did that sort of **** at college years ago, how much pressure to jack up cars etc etc then we get back to the work shop and find it doesn't matter one jot,) PS a hood is something that's stuck to the back of a coat.
          Maybe then you didn't understand the purpose of why the colleges were teaching that sort of stuff?

          It was'nt to make you better at your job at work, hence that is why you went to work, the purpose of going to college was to learn what the vehicle manufacturers wanted you to know, then you could progress higher up the ladder in the manufacturing industry.

          In the trade today there is a lot of technical information available, but if that information was not available to guide you, could you correctly diagnose faults on vehicles?

          The purpose of the old school was to learn people how things were created and how they work, but today back in the garage, any labour can do a job that was originally intended for a craftsman.

          The evidence in the UK more than ever now in our trade proves that many many people have not got the training to do the job right, look how many parts are ordered and sent back each day from garages because this attitude of plug it in and try it, if it don't work send it back and try something else has become the norm.

          Comment

          • daytona dave
            Member
            • Jun 2011
            • 47

            #20
            Originally posted by David Green
            Maybe then you didn't understand the purpose of why the colleges were teaching that sort of stuff?

            It wasn't to make you better at your job at work, hence that is why you went to work, the purpose of going to college was to learn what the vehicle manufacturers wanted you to know, then you could progress higher up the ladder in the manufacturing industry.

            In the trade today there is a lot of technical information available, but if that information was not available to guide you, could you correctly diagnose faults on vehicles?

            The purpose of the old school was to learn people how things were created and how they work, but today back in the garage, any labour can do a job that was originally intended for a craftsman.

            The evidence in the UK more than ever now in our trade proves that many many people have not got the training to do the job right, look how many parts are ordered and sent back each day from garages because this attitude of plug it in and try it, if it don't work send it back and try something else has become the norm.
            well you are obviously that well educated that you missed the point entirely, when i started in the trade in 1975 we were taught by true craftsmen., and you did 5 years at collage before you were allowed to call yourself a mechanic, NOT a six week holiday, or a 1 or 2 day scanner course then tell every one your a specialist, and yes i can diagnose cars the difference is i learned when cars were cars not half car half computer, if a cars broke i fix it, and if i have a car with brake problems i certainly don't need to work it out on a bit of paper with a load of equations, because my friend i live in the real world, and the people that send the parts back are the Muppet's that believe the equations or the machine that told them what was wrong in the first place, i did all the equation bit 35 years ago and i have never come across a situation in the work shop where it was needed, but common sense and what the TRUE craftsmen taught me is used on a daily basis, and i have no intention of climbing up the manufacturing ladder as i quite enjoy repairing the ba*ls up the guys with the equations have made then deny all knowledge, knowing at the end of the day in the real world i know more than them. you will find that it was the so called experts that designed the egr valve dual mass flywheel etc all of which cause no end of problems that the humble mechanic have to repair because the experts got it wrong again.
            everybodys mad except me

            Comment

            • USpMD
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2010
              • 171

              #21
              Originally posted by daytona dave
              well you are obviously that well educated that you missed the point entirely, when i started in the trade in 1975 we were taught by true craftsmen., and you did 5 years at collage before you were allowed to call yourself a mechanic, NOT a six week holiday, or a 1 or 2 day scanner course then tell every one your a specialist, and yes i can diagnose cars the difference is i learned when cars were cars not half car half computer, if a cars broke i fix it, and if i have a car with brake problems i certainly don't need to work it out on a bit of paper with a load of equations, because my friend i live in the real world, and the people that send the parts back are the Muppet's that believe the equations or the machine that told them what was wrong in the first place, i did all the equation bit 35 years ago and i have never come across a situation in the work shop where it was needed, but common sense and what the TRUE craftsmen taught me is used on a daily basis, and i have no intention of climbing up the manufacturing ladder as i quite enjoy repairing the ba*ls up the guys with the equations have made then deny all knowledge, knowing at the end of the day in the real world i know more than them. you will find that it was the so called experts that designed the egr valve dual mass flywheel etc all of which cause no end of problems that the humble mechanic have to repair because the experts got it wrong again.
              Quote:
              Originally Posted by David Green
              Maybe then you didn't understand the purpose of why the colleges were teaching that sort of stuff?

              It wasn't to make you better at your job at work, hence that is why you went to work, the purpose of going to college was to learn what the vehicle manufacturers wanted you to know, then you could progress higher up the ladder in the manufacturing industry.

              In the trade today there is a lot of technical information available, but if that information was not available to guide you, could you correctly diagnose faults on vehicles?

              The purpose of the old school was to learn people how things were created and how they work, but today back in the garage, any labour can do a job that was originally intended for a craftsman.

              The evidence in the UK more than ever now in our trade proves that many many people have not got the training to do the job right, look how many parts are ordered and sent back each day from garages because this attitude of plug it in and try it, if it don't work send it back and try something else has become the norm.


              Well, I see both your points !
              Not all of us go to College to learn the same thing, When I was a young man, I attended college and majored in electrial engineering, with thoughts of the aircraft industry, I was however born into the auto industry and followed my father after to many layoffs in the aircraft industry, yes this education did help, I didnt need the slide rule or calulator when in the shop however.
              Now after thirty plus years in the automotive industry I now teach part time to students seeking a degree in Automotive Applied Technology at the local College, we teach skills to apply to real jobs, some students just want the basics (sometimes its very hard getting them to learn this much) and some students want and crave much more! Its a individual thing
              "I wanna help the helpless, but I could careless about the clueless". Dennis Miller

              Comment

              • David Green
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 382

                #22
                Originally posted by daytona dave
                well you are obviously that well educated that you missed the point entirely, when i started in the trade in 1975 we were taught by true craftsmen., and you did 5 years at collage before you were allowed to call yourself a mechanic, NOT a six week holiday, or a 1 or 2 day scanner course then tell every one your a specialist, and yes i can diagnose cars the difference is i learned when cars were cars not half car half computer, if a cars broke i fix it, and if i have a car with brake problems i certainly don't need to work it out on a bit of paper with a load of equations, because my friend i live in the real world, and the people that send the parts back are the Muppet's that believe the equations or the machine that told them what was wrong in the first place, i did all the equation bit 35 years ago and i have never come across a situation in the work shop where it was needed, but common sense and what the TRUE craftsmen taught me is used on a daily basis, and i have no intention of climbing up the manufacturing ladder as i quite enjoy repairing the ba*ls up the guys with the equations have made then deny all knowledge, knowing at the end of the day in the real world i know more than them. you will find that it was the so called experts that designed the egr valve dual mass flywheel etc all of which cause no end of problems that the humble mechanic have to repair because the experts got it wrong again.
                Well I certainly didn't start out to rattle your cage lol, but it seems I did , well based on what you have said above, you clearly don't like maths, which is OK by me, but when I started posting I was only having a a bit of fun with Crusty, I obviously upset you?

                I think first off that you should appreciate that I had no way of knowing your long term experience, like yourself I too came from the same time period.

                I respect that there are problems in the reliability of some compoents from the OEM stage, but it's not necessarily the designers at fault when problems arise, by example, if I were asked to calculate the forces acting through the rivets that held a clutch plate together, and I did and then advised the OEM what the technical specifications are, if they got another independent expert to shave off some of the safety factor that I built into the clutch, would it be my fault if the OEM was cutting corners to save a few pence?

                I don't think however you are in the right to start abusing anyone who is good at maths and science, although you point out that you have never required it since leaving college in the 70's, that does not mean that people higher up the ladder who design and manufacturer compoents don't require a sound understanding of the subject, where if those people didn't exist you would never have been in a job in the first place!

                Everything you use in the workshop is designed and created by people like me who work out all the safety factors and the reliablility factors, so that you can work safely, so next time you send the ramp up and you are stood underneath it, or the next time you have some pnuematic device in your hands that could fail in service and cause personal injury, just think about the materials specalist and the engineering mathematicians who worked out the reliability and safety of the equipment on your behalf!

                Also next time you drive across a bridge like say Barton Bridge in Manchester, there may be a similar bridge where you are, think about the science and the maths that went into the design of that bridge before you drive over it and get to the other end safely!

                I don't think your shop floor experience will suffice do you?

                Comment

                • Crusty
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2007
                  • 2450

                  #23
                  , When I was a young man, I attended college and majored in electrial engineering,

                  Electrical Engineering????.....THAT explains a whole lot to me about some of your posts....I'm ribbing Ya....My Dad was an Electrical Engineer....LOL... (just having some fun with ya)

                  , I didnt need the slide rule or calulator when in the shop however.

                  But you can't deny that understanding the workings has helped you even to this day. I still go back the the very kind of basics David has mentioned, seems to sort out the solutions for me.

                  Now after thirty plus years in the automotive industry I now teach part time to students seeking a degree in Automotive Applied Technology at the local College, we teach skills to apply to real jobs, some students just want the basics (sometimes its very hard getting them to learn this much) and some students want and crave much more! Its a individual thing[/QUOTE]

                  Some students, and some people throughout life find it interesting, stimulating, informative and educational to keep expanding the horizons every day, every week, every month. Most of the "crusty" old farts I've met over the years were more fun and much more interesting people when they kept an open mind and kept learning something new every day.
                  I hear what Daytona-DAve is saying too. David is right as well. PRACTICAl APPLICATION of these kind of things is what we all do all the time. One thing about this trade is.....it's never boring.

                  Comment

                  • USpMD
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2010
                    • 171

                    #24
                    Ya Ya you rib a lot Crusty.... LOL teaching is great, I like to see the lamp come on in the students eyes when I see that they get it, both these guys have got it together, just diferent perspectives

                    Besides, its just a story to illustrate a point, people arent always whom they seam to be! LOL
                    Last edited by USpMD; 10-01-2011, 08:49 PM.
                    "I wanna help the helpless, but I could careless about the clueless". Dennis Miller

                    Comment

                    • daytona dave
                      Member
                      • Jun 2011
                      • 47

                      #25
                      Originally posted by David Green
                      Well I certainly didn't start out to rattle your cage lol, but it seems I did:

                      Also next time you drive across a bridge like say Barton Bridge in Manchester, there may be a similar bridge where you are, think about the science and the maths that went into the design of that bridge before you drive over it and get to the other end safely!

                      I don't think your shop floor experience will suffice do you?
                      ooh, scary, you certainly didn't rattle my cage i was simply putting my point across the same as you did, and as for the Barton bridge that was designed to work and keep on working, unlike modern cars LOL
                      everybodys mad except me

                      Comment

                      • David Green
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 382

                        #26
                        Originally posted by daytona dave
                        ooh, scary, you certainly didn't rattle my cage i was simply putting my point across the same as you did, and as for the Barton bridge that was designed to work and keep on working, unlike modern cars LOL
                        What's wrong with keeping in the making money market lol

                        Crusty if you have a none starter in your electical engineering lol, it could be;

                        y(x) = x^6 1<_ x <_ 10 <_ means less than or equal to.

                        log y = log x^6 = 6 log x

                        If you plot that graph lol , the vehicle might not start lol

                        Have a nice day both of you

                        Comment

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