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  • Tech_A
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 115

    #16
    Originally posted by GypsyR
    Well aware. But to say they are different is like saying your Iphone is different from mine because you have Facetime or something on it and I don't. The added diagnostics is just an app extension.
    As a transmission repair focused shop we have found our four years of the "Intelligent" Diagnostics subscription to so far be next to useless. No idea why the boss still pays for it. Any code you get like a shift solenoid or speed sensor it will basically say "replace transmission". I'm serious, it's absurd.

    I don't care at all for the huge "soap on a rope" Edge dongle but it seems to me to be slightly more responsive than the nice and slim Zeus dongle. I don't use both scanners back to back often but it happens.
    That's a good analogy. Sorry to hear that you are not getting the full benefits of intelligent diagnostics. What do you think would make it less absurd?

    Comment

    • Wheel
      Senior Member
      • Jul 2007
      • 719

      #17
      Originally posted by Corvette Rick
      I agree the features and data built into the tool are very nice

      , especially 2012 and before for the troubleshooter. I only wish 2012 and on would download into the tool now and stay instead of being web based. Living in Alaska we don't have Wi-Fi every square inch of the state so its not as good of a feature for remote places.
      Precisely. the "world wide web" isn't - contrary to popular opinion. There are areas you get neither internet nor cell phone coverage, more so than people think. The industry push to make diagnostic tools more internet dependent is foolish for just such reasons. One thing scan tool makers need to seriously consider if they are bound and determined to marry their tools to the internet is to add an option for a sim card so they may connect independently to the internet IN ADDITION TO not instead of the tool's built in wifi capabilities giving the mechanic some options.
      With the built in troubleshooter Snap On had something really unique and special
      making their tools actually worth some of that extra money they charge for them.
      Intelligent diagnostics seems to take a more "hand you a fish" approach unlike the "teach you to fish" approach troubleshooter seemed to take.
      You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

      Comment

      • Wheel
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2007
        • 719

        #18
        Originally posted by Tech_A
        That's a good analogy. Sorry to hear that you are not getting the full benefits of intelligent diagnostics. What do you think would make it less absurd?
        The kind of advice he described seems to push parts changing over diagnosis and repair. Often something far more simple and affordable turns out to be the problem.
        We need to determine what is actually wrong with something, even if replacement is the best option. We are asking our customer to invest a lot of money . We owe him or her a thorough explanation WHY a repair is needed, just saying it is needed is not enough. If I am unable to explain to a customer why they need a repair - any repair - then that is a sure sign I did not do my homework, I may not know what I am doing, and that I absolutely do not deserve their business.
        You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

        Comment

        • GypsyR
          Senior Member
          • Jul 2017
          • 288

          #19
          Originally posted by Tech_A
          That's a good analogy. Sorry to hear that you are not getting the full benefits of intelligent diagnostics. What do you think would make it less absurd?
          Over and over I see stuff in the "diagnostics" that says REPLACE TRANSMISSION due to whatever issue I am chasing. Also many of the listings of how other people have solved the issue will say the same thing.

          Walk back a couple of years where we still have the "troubleshooting" button. A transmission code often as not will be explained and several potential causes of it listed. Bonus would sometimes be a call that I should focus on either electrical or mechanical causes for the code. Helpful, because many codes that indicate a speed sensor issue is actually where something mechanical has broken so the sensor works fine, there's just no motion for it to read. Often some hints on where to start looking and what to looks at. Sometimes even a lead to an actual test built into the scanner I can perform to help me prove out where the failure is. Thus I can determine if my example speed sensor code indicates a failed sensor, faulty wiring/communication, or an actual an internal and exponentially expensive failure. All of the have has happened. A lot.

          All that great information versus the "Intelligent Diagnostics" telling us to "replace transmission". We basically ignore that ....ahem, stuff, and treasure the old troubleshooting info when its available as it can be pure gold on occasion.

          The idiot shop across town "replaces transmissions". Then later sometimes the customer comes to us because it's still not repaired and it's evident even to him that the thousands of dollars he spent on a new transmission was a waste because that shop failed to diagnose the problem correctly. We do not want to be the idiot shop. Not a path we choose to follow.

          Comment

          • Tech_A
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2014
            • 115

            #20
            Originally posted by GypsyR
            Over and over I see stuff in the "diagnostics" that says REPLACE TRANSMISSION due to whatever issue I am chasing. Also many of the listings of how other people have solved the issue will say the same thing.

            Walk back a couple of years where we still have the "troubleshooting" button. A transmission code often as not will be explained and several potential causes of it listed. Bonus would sometimes be a call that I should focus on either electrical or mechanical causes for the code. Helpful, because many codes that indicate a speed sensor issue is actually where something mechanical has broken so the sensor works fine, there's just no motion for it to read. Often some hints on where to start looking and what to looks at. Sometimes even a lead to an actual test built into the scanner I can perform to help me prove out where the failure is. Thus I can determine if my example speed sensor code indicates a failed sensor, faulty wiring/communication, or an actual an internal and exponentially expensive failure. All of the have has happened. A lot.

            All that great information versus the "Intelligent Diagnostics" telling us to "replace transmission". We basically ignore that ....ahem, stuff, and treasure the old troubleshooting info when its available as it can be pure gold on occasion.

            The idiot shop across town "replaces transmissions". Then later sometimes the customer comes to us because it's still not repaired and it's evident even to him that the thousands of dollars he spent on a new transmission was a waste because that shop failed to diagnose the problem correctly. We do not want to be the idiot shop. Not a path we choose to follow.
            So if I understand this correctly a more suitable experience would guide a technician down the path of a possible solution rather than the current intelligent diagnostics experience that shows the most likely solution(s) first and then information to verify that fault through TSB's, smart data, functional tests, guided component test, real fixes, troubleshooter and Repair Information

            Comment

            • GypsyR
              Senior Member
              • Jul 2017
              • 288

              #21
              As somewhat higher level diagnostic technicians, we are "detectives". We want as many clues as possible. Then we can make a call as to the repair path or what further diagnostic work may be needed to narrow down the problem. It's what we've been working for years to be able to do and what we get paid for. The junior and lower level folks just want a target for their parts cannons. The senior ones have seen enough problems caused by stuff that's never been in any shop manual or repair information that canned presumptive answers don't fly.

              And I'm not kidding about the "replace transmission" thing. It's THE most common answer to any sort of transmission issue in the Intelligent Diagnostic list. It's kind of like how green mechanics and parts store people want to replace an oxygen sensor every time they see an 02 sensor code.

              Comment

              • Steve6911
                Moderator
                • Feb 2007
                • 2192

                #22
                Kahlil, I will have to agree 100% with the responses to your questions here. The "Intelligent Diagnostics" is lacking any real world testing. I cannot speak for the transmission side like Ben can But the engine side is as he states. Say I have a code for Oxygen sensor, Slow response, flagging certain data PIDS is nice, but if you don't know how the system works what does that sensor flag being red mean other then out of spec? So now the tech scrolls down to SureTrack, "most" of the time it will state the sensor acted "erratic". Exactly what does that mean? What does the PID look like when it is not erratic? If it was tested with a scope Good and Bad patterns would be nice. Even if it was tested with a Volt meter, what does erratic and good look like. Mostly the scanners show an Oxygen sensor code, its replace the oxygen sensor, Mass air flow sensor code, replace the mass air flow sensor. My first scanner was the OTC Monitor 2000, I really liked it in its time. My Boss came off the S.O. truck with the MT2500 one day. I had a Ford with an EVP sensor code. The OTC flow chart book had 3 columns of tests. I tried the TroubleShooter for the first time and in 5 minutes I had my answer. Many of the tests in there were like that, very well thought out and part replacement was not a pattern failure guess it gave accurate testing. I know vehicles have come a long way since then, MUCH more complex. However the Troubleshooter and the CTM are things that put Snap-on tools above the others and my thoughts are we need to get these back to where they belong to stay ahead.

                Comment

                • Tech_A
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2014
                  • 115

                  #23
                  I would agree there are plenty of opportunities to improve content to support vehicle diagnostics in Snap-on products.

                  MT2500 VCI's "real-world testing" does not even compare to most modern scan tools. I would assume that level of "expert" knowledge is very hard to come by now.

                  I feel what Snap-on exceeds at is providing content in a consolidated space that technicians of all levels can understand, but it does take a person with some critical thinking to utilize that information correctly.

                  Comment

                  • GypsyR
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2017
                    • 288

                    #24
                    I've been going with the assumption that when Snap On axed the written troubleshooting section they also axed or repositioned the person/people responsible for compiling and writing out all that wonderful information. Or perhaps they retired or left and Snap On couldn't replace them? I can certainly picture that. In any case I figure that horse is now long dead and buried, no sense to beat it.

                    Comment

                    • Tech_A
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2014
                      • 115

                      #25
                      Originally posted by GypsyR
                      I've been going with the assumption that when Snap On axed the written troubleshooting section they also axed or repositioned the person/people responsible for compiling and writing out all that wonderful information. Or perhaps they retired or left and Snap On couldn't replace them? I can certainly picture that. In any case I figure that horse is now long dead and buried, no sense to beat it.
                      Its time to ride the new Intelligent Diagnostics horse

                      Comment

                      • Wheel
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2007
                        • 719

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Tech_A
                        Its time to ride the new Intelligent Diagnostics horse
                        Actually, it may be time to bury that horse as well. For experienced techs, it really is a waste of time so they go elsewhere for information. For inexperienced techs, it has the potential to do more harm than good. It can get one into the parts changing habit rather than building the diagnostic skills that get to the root of the problem. As vehicles get more complex, the less likely it can be for two identical cars with identical symptoms to have an identical cause. Troubleshooter was like having a tutor helping you learn to figure things out. It didn't always have all the answers either, but it also taught you a mindset so you could better find those yourself. And it was always there when the internet wasn't or couldn't be.
                        You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

                        Comment

                        • Wheel
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2007
                          • 719

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Steve6911
                          Kahlil, I will have to agree 100% with the responses to your questions here. The "Intelligent Diagnostics" is lacking any real world testing. I cannot speak for the transmission side like Ben can But the engine side is as he states. Say I have a code for Oxygen sensor, Slow response, flagging certain data PIDS is nice, but if you don't know how the system works what does that sensor flag being red mean other then out of spec? So now the tech scrolls down to SureTrack, "most" of the time it will state the sensor acted "erratic". Exactly what does that mean? What does the PID look like when it is not erratic? If it was tested with a scope Good and Bad patterns would be nice. Even if it was tested with a Volt meter, what does erratic and good look like. Mostly the scanners show an Oxygen sensor code, its replace the oxygen sensor, Mass air flow sensor code, replace the mass air flow sensor. My first scanner was the OTC Monitor 2000, I really liked it in its time. My Boss came off the S.O. truck with the MT2500 one day. I had a Ford with an EVP sensor code. The OTC flow chart book had 3 columns of tests. I tried the TroubleShooter for the first time and in 5 minutes I had my answer. Many of the tests in there were like that, very well thought out and part replacement was not a pattern failure guess it gave accurate testing. I know vehicles have come a long way since then, MUCH more complex. However the Troubleshooter and the CTM are things that put Snap-on tools above the others and my thoughts are we need to get these back to where they belong to stay ahead.
                          There is absolutely no way I could have said it better.
                          You can expect the reputation of your business to be no better than the cheapest item or service you are willing to sell. - Wheel

                          Comment

                          • GypsyR
                            Senior Member
                            • Jul 2017
                            • 288

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Tech_A
                            Its time to ride the new Intelligent Diagnostics horse
                            Well, if it wasn't quite so lame....

                            (Sorry, absolutely could NOT resist.)

                            Comment

                            • SnapOnKid
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 873

                              #29
                              GypsyR, Steve6911, And Wheel

                              Well said all 3 of you. It won't let me Quote all 3 of you with out erroring out.

                              Maybe the Meta Verse, Google, Or You tube can tell me how to fix the problem? Oh wait, That also requires an internet connection....

                              So If I am going to spend all my time on the net and the simple answer is to replace what ever part the code is attached too then why did we purchase these expensive "code readers"???

                              Wouldn't it be more cost effective to purchase a Bluetooth OBD2 dongle and use a smart Phone App???

                              Every scan tool on the market has it's weak points. The trouble shooter used to be something that set the Snap On product apart.

                              Comment

                              • Tech_A
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2014
                                • 115

                                #30
                                Originally posted by SnapOnKid
                                GypsyR, Steve6911, And Wheel

                                Well said all 3 of you. It won't let me Quote all 3 of you with out erroring out.

                                Maybe the Meta Verse, Google, Or You tube can tell me how to fix the problem? Oh wait, That also requires an internet connection....

                                So If I am going to spend all my time on the net and the simple answer is to replace what ever part the code is attached too then why did we purchase these expensive "code readers"???

                                Wouldn't it be more cost effective to purchase a Bluetooth OBD2 dongle and use a smart Phone App???

                                Every scan tool on the market has it's weak points. The trouble shooter used to be something that set the Snap On product apart.
                                Snap-on products also provide guided component tests, service resets and relearns, tire wheel and maintenance, and altus drive. How many smartphone or android tablet apps can do that?

                                Comment

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