Ford Missfire Testing, Still a long way from IDS

[phill57]

Good Day Everyone.

I was working on a 1999 Ford F250 Super Duty Saturday. The truck had a missfire among other things and the customer did me a favour by disconnecting the battery, thus clearing any possible codes which could help pinpoint which of the 10 cylinders was or were the problem. I scanned with the Verus and got a memory code for bank2 sensor 1 lean but no missfires. I looked in Mode 6 data, test ID 53 and all 10 cylinders were at 0 counts. I tried the Cylinder Contribution test in 10.2 and this is a screen capture of the recorded results.20101121-2207-1.jpg
Looks to me like cylinder 6 and 9 are suspicious. Not sure what caused the -1248 on cylinder 2? I decided to confirm the test results using Ford IDS, (it's on the Verus) and here is the first capture: 20101121-1305-1.jpg.
It clearly shows no7 and possibly 3 are the problem cylinders. So I went ahead and inspected the plug in no. 7 and replaced that coil. redid the test and got this:20101121-1318-1.jpg.
Inspected and replaced no 3 coil and problem solved.

Snap-On still has a way to go to measure up to Fords IDS. Oh well at least I could graph all 10 cylinders at the same time. (for now).

[Orevin]

With that scope on your Verus you could have diagnosed the two bad coils at the same time and verified the remaining coils are up to snuff ;-)

[phill57]

Using scope to check coils.

Hello Orevin.

I have tried using the labscope to diagnose failing coils on these Fords. I have the COP adapter and the ignition scope leads but that still requires that you individually attach the COP adapter to each coil and then load or drive the vehicle until the missfire shows up. On this particular vehicle the missfre was pretty obvious and it would breakdown in drive at a stadstill so I could have narrowed it down by simply disconnecting the coils individually to see which one was not contributing. That still requires you fumble with those pesky connectors in this very cramped engine compartment. Since installing IDS on my Verus I have not used anything else to locate the miss.

At one time I even experimented current ramping the coils all at the some time with the current clamp over the common power feed wire to all the coils and then using the number 1 coil control to trigger the pattern. I could see an open primary if I disconnected a coil and identify which one it was by counting through the firing order from numbr 1 but most of these coils fail on the secondary side and I have yet to see evidence of that current ramping. Additionally these systems fire the coils three times below about 1200 rpm with makes it more difficult to see any anomalies.

I had an F150 4x4 standard a few years ago that would only miss on an uphill grade in OD hot. I did not have IDS at the time and moving the COP adapter from coil to coil and then re-road testing was a pain in the a... I finally just started changing the coils one at a time until the miss was gone. It turned out to be the 4'th coil I swapped.

I understand the new 10.4 software is supposed to have a coil stress test procedure but I have not tried that out yet. I know IDS can do this if you have the optionally Vehicle Measurement Module but I don't have that.

[crackerclicker]

Hello Orevin.

I have tried using the labscope to diagnose failing coils on these Fords. I have the COP adapter and the ignition scope leads but that still requires that you individually attach the COP adapter to each coil and then load or drive the vehicle until the missfire shows up. On this particular vehicle the missfre was pretty obvious and it would breakdown in drive at a stadstill so I could have narrowed it down by simply disconnecting the coils individually to see which one was not contributing. That still requires you fumble with those pesky connectors in this very cramped engine compartment. Since installing IDS on my Verus I have not used anything else to locate the miss.

At one time I even experimented current ramping the coils all at the some time with the current clamp over the common power feed wire to all the coils and then using the number 1 coil control to trigger the pattern. I could see an open primary if I disconnected a coil and identify which one it was by counting through the firing order from numbr 1 but most of these coils fail on the secondary side and I have yet to see evidence of that current ramping. Additionally these systems fire the coils three times below about 1200 rpm with makes it more difficult to see any anomalies.

I had an F150 4x4 standard a few years ago that would only miss on an uphill grade in OD hot. I did not have IDS at the time and moving the COP adapter from coil to coil and then re-road testing was a pain in the a... I finally just started changing the coils one at a time until the miss was gone. It turned out to be the 4'th coil I swapped.

I understand the new 10.4 software is supposed to have a coil stress test procedure but I have not tried that out yet. I know IDS can do this if you have the optionally Vehicle Measurement Module but I don't have that.

i want to start by saying i know what you mean by this post. yes, snappy has a way to go with the cyl. contribution test, but at least they offer it where others don't .
however, regardless of the contirbution test, orevin has the right idea. you can pick out so much more from an amp capture. i only wish i had a capture for you that demonstrated what happens when you have a secondary issue.

[Orevin]

Hello Orevin.

I have tried using the labscope to diagnose failing coils on these Fords. I have the COP adapter and the ignition scope leads but that still requires that you individually attach the COP adapter to each coil and then load or drive the vehicle until the missfire shows up. On this particular vehicle the missfre was pretty obvious and it would breakdown in drive at a stadstill so I could have narrowed it down by simply disconnecting the coils individually to see which one was not contributing. That still requires you fumble with those pesky connectors in this very cramped engine compartment. Since installing IDS on my Verus I have not used anything else to locate the miss.

Locating the misfiring cylinder is only the first step. The reason for the misfire has to be found. I like to make sure it's the coil (or not) before ordering parts. Current ramping is a pretty good method to find failed as well as weak coils, that don't cause a driveability concern yet. You could make the customer aware of a potential problem with cylinder #X coil. Do you want that to be taken care of while your car is already here?

At one time I even experimented current ramping the coils all at the some time with the current clamp over the common power feed wire to all the coils and then using the number 1 coil control to trigger the pattern. I could see an open primary if I disconnected a coil and identify which one it was by counting through the firing order from numbr 1 but most of these coils fail on the secondary side and I have yet to see evidence of that current ramping. Additionally these systems fire the coils three times below about 1200 rpm with makes it more difficult to see any anomalies.

The multi-spark ignition makes it very easy to spot weak coils. See crackerclicker's post. D-tips.com has two great articles on COP diagnosis in their member section. A search on iATN will bring up some useful posts as well. Here is link to a video hosted by Ryan Kooiman on that subject: http://www.technicianstoolbox.com/in...87&topicId=105

I had an F150 4x4 standard a few years ago that would only miss on an uphill grade in OD hot. I did not have IDS at the time and moving the COP adapter from coil to coil and then re-road testing was a pain in the a... I finally just started changing the coils one at a time until the miss was gone. It turned out to be the 4'th coil I swapped.

There is a fuse that feeds all coils and nothing else. Easy hook-up! Trigger from an easily accessible primary and you're good to go.

I understand the new 10.4 software is supposed to have a coil stress test procedure but I have not tried that out yet. I know IDS can do this if you have the optionally Vehicle Measurement Module but I don't have that.

[greasybob]

The one big advantage a Pico scope has as I understand it is you can take a screen shot at say 100ms sweep and "blow it up" to see a section of it at say 10ms. So you could put your amp probe around the main coil supply wire and trigger off of voltage on no. one cylinder and set the sweep to capture all 8 cylinders, then zoom in on one cylinder at a time for a closer look without moving your trigger from coil to coil. Snap On you listening. All we can do is condense a scope screen shot or movie.

[Rich Shepherd]

The one big advantage a Pico scope has as I understand it is you can take a screen shot at say 100ms sweep and "blow it up" to see a section of it at say 10ms. So you could put your amp probe around the main coil supply wire and trigger off of voltage on no. one cylinder and set the sweep to capture all 8 cylinders, then zoom in on one cylinder at a time for a closer look without moving your trigger from coil to coil. Snap On you listening. All we can do is condense a scope screen shot or movie.

While you can't zoom further in on captured data, you can still do much of what you are suggesting with a Modis/VPro/Verus scope using the zoom out feature if you capture data using a faster sweep.
Setup as you note above except using maybe 1 or 2ms sweep.
Capture some data, select Pause, and zoom out.
Now you have a screen of data like you would see with Pico (Zoomed out).
Move the zoom cusor to each cylinder and zoom back in to get a closer view of each cylinder's waveform.
If you don't see enough detail, you can capture data with a faster sweep such as 500 us.
With Pico, you start with a wider view and then zoom in to the first point of interest.
With Snap-on, you start with a narrower view, zoom out, then select your 1st point of interest to zoom in on.
They are both collecting data points over time, you just have to approach how you capture it with each one a bit differently and you can get similar results.

[greasybob]

Ok, my appologies, I should have chosen my words better. It's not a "big advantage" and I'm not going to trade in my Verus for a Pico anytime soon. I understand what your saying about recording at a faster sweep rate and then zoom out. I just think that being able to zoom out or zoom in on scope recordings would be a good feature to have. We can do it with scanner movies, not sure why it wasn't put in for scope recordings as well. I think most people when current ramping coils or injectors, especially on Ford trucks since the main power supply is so easily accessable, just start by capturing all eight or ten cylinders on the screen first. The other thing I notice is that when you speed up the sweep rate, the record time decreases, but maybe there is something I'm missing here about how to increase the record time.

[phill57]

scoping secondary with amp clamp

Thanks Guys. I stand corrected. I see your examples of a failing coil. Since I have a few bad ones I think I am going to experiment with this again. I might not have been looking at the patterns correctly but I am going to try it again.

Good information.

[crackerclicker]

@rich shepard: i didn't have any bad coil modis captures to show . the snap on scope platform was too irritating for me. i never liked the "anti-zoom", so pico was my replacement for the modis. and, WOW, what a replacement!! i picked up a solus pro in order to keep snappy's great scanner in my arsenal, and, even though the modis/verus is the most capable hand held scope available, i think i'll stick with the pico .

[USpMD]

well guys, I have read all your posts, Heres how we did it at Ford dealer.... Yes I have a IDS, and all required VMM & VCM, cost $8000 bucks, plus Ford subscription since I left the dealer and opened my own Gig. I also have a Verus with 10.4, only used 10.2 for 3 months before upgrading to 10.4, I dont understand what all the fuss is about,(how many graphs can you focus on anyways) yes I agree theres concerns, and I have felt them, now getting back to how to diag missfires on Fords,I use mode 6 to identify suspect cylinder, preform a plug check on suspected cyl. check spark boot for arching to head(common problem) these boots only last 100k,(check for water intrusion due to steam cleaning engine)_(also verify no leak from heater hose clamp above cyl#4) best to replace when replacing plugs, verify base engine is ok, if you still havent resolved concern perform injector flow test, very easy to do with IDS, not so with verus, however try swaping injectors form known good cyl. now to test pesky cop coil failures see 10.4 customer presitation on snap on site, there Jim Mortz walks you thru the same test we performed at the dealer level with Verus, you can also use Modis or others with lab scope, see slide 6 for the info, I recommend you watch them all, if you have access to motorcraft.com pull up TSB
05-22-8 WDS COP KIT DIAGNOSTIC TIPS - COIL ON PLUG (COP) IGNITION SYSTEMS - ENGINE MISFIRE OR ROUGH RUNNING , for complete details, I have been testing them this way for the past 6 years , Oh one last thing, these coil failures can be erratic, get the coils good and hot with a 20min roadtest prior to preforming this test to catch the tough ones, hope this helps

[Wheel]

I also have a Verus with 10.4, only used 10.2 for 3 months before upgrading to 10.4, I dont understand what all the fuss is about,(how many graphs can you focus on anyways)

I can focus on all 16 and at times wish I had more. You don't have to scrutinize all 16 at once for them to be useful, but a quick glance at a lot of graphs can quickly tell you something is out of place. multiple graphs on the screen at once helps me to see the interrelations of how things work together, or should be working together. This is also why the drag and drop pid arrangement is so vital so that you can get the pids you need to see together on the screen at once and compare them. The OBD2 system sets what we call rationality codes by doing similar comparing, so it makes good diagnostic sense to use the same strategy, because it is a good one. The 10.4 system really hampers this effort compared to the previous interface which is why I and perhaps others are so vocal about it.
Just because the Verus CAN graph 16 pids does not mean one is forced to.
We each have our own diagnostic styles and needs, and when we now have a tool that forces us out of these styles and needs, it hurts our performance.
Therefore a tool that meets a wide range of needs is necessary, which is what the Verus was until 10.4. The first picture put up by Phill57 in his original post illustrates well why more graphs are needed. You may not need them, but others do. Frankly, I am puzzled why anyone would want a Verus who was not wanting to look at a lot of graphs or a full page of pids in text form.
The Verus is heavy and bulky - a Verdict would be a much better choice it would seem for someone not needing a lot of data on the screen at once.

Hey, thanks a million for the coil checking tips, I can use them.

[crackerclicker]

@phil:
i just remembered that greasybob has some good videos on youtube for the ford coils located here: http://www.youtube.com/user/MrGreasy.../9/W2swmR213ws

also, i wanted to add a little to your original intention with this post. i've noticed a lot of sympathy misfire counts using the contribution test. so, it would be conceivable to go down the proverbial diagnostic "rabbit hole" if we aren't careful. but it sure is nice to have this feature! have you seen autoenginuity's version of this? now, there is a work in progress .

@greasybob: you brought up record legth earlier, so i thought you might like to read this: http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/Y...num=1265231719